I'm posting this in several forums that I contribute to, in the hopes that someone can get the word out to FEMA or the Army Corps of Engineers, or someone in New Orleans government.

Evacuation is already underway, and my heart goes out to anyone who has friends and family living in New Orleans. It's gonna be a mess, and the Mayor already accepts that there will be some deaths.

I had this thought, and I haven't seen it on the National Weather bureau site, or weather.com, or the news station websites, or the weather channel.

New Orleans is expected to be underwater by the time this is over - since it's already below sea level and requires levees to keep the water out. In addition, many people who live there don't have transportation out, and hotels are already booked solid 150 miles north. They're considering using the Astrodome to shelter stranded residents and visitors.

Here's the thought: Small watercraft - rowboats, 4-passenger motorboats, kyaks, canoes, big rafts (not the rubber tube things - I mean real rafts)...

Many of these crafts can be strapped on top of some of the bigger cars and SUVs and small trucks. Others can be hitched on SUVs and vans.

They need to get these smaller boats OUT of the water at the shoreline, and upriver to the east around 70 miles or so. Before the storm hits. That way, when it's time for rescue missions, they'll have boats to bring rescuers down, with necessary minimal first aid and medical supplies. And they can get people stranded out of New Orleans via those same boats - because the latest news is that all those streets are gonna be the Mississippi's newest tributaries and creeks after this is all over.

On an announcement down in NO, they said "This is not a test. This is the real deal. Board up your homes...." This is serious ****. And in all of what I've been reading and watching, I haven't heard a single mention of the city government commandeering small watercraft and getting them on land so they can be used for rescue operations.

If anyone knows anyone in the NO government, or FEMA - maybe you could call them and suggest it. During a federal emergency, the government retains the right to commandeer privately owned vehicles as needed. Unfortunately, cars and trucks aren't going to be much help during the first hours after the storm subsides, since the city is expected to be under 25 feet of water. But boats WILL be of much help - ONLY if they are removed from the water and set on land - land which will likely be new tributaries once this mess is over and the cleanup begins.

The mayor of NO had issued an emergency order this morning (Sunday) stating that state and local officials could comandeer all land or sea vehicles needed for the emergency.

Good luck to anyone in the area, though I hope you are not reading this from within New Orleans at this point.

--matt

Now that the Red Cross is scrambling to help people in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, we've all also got a chance to help those in need by contributing to the Red Cross. The Red Cross provides free meals and lodging vouchers to those who have been hammered by Katrina. If you can afford to do so, please visit and contribute to the Red Cross! Thanks!

Ya know, my first thoughts were to find a way to help - either by sending food/toilet paper/bottled water/toothbrushes etc. or money, or even going there personally.

I can't afford to go (and besides the airport's still closed).. and then I got to thinking, there's no way to guarantee that the contributions will NOT go to people who *chose* to remain when the mandatory evacuation order was announced.

I really don't want to help anyone who *could have* left, but *chose* not to. I don't think anyone should help them. I don't even think their insurance companies should help them. They're already costing the government time, energy, and money in rescuing their butts from their own choices, and delaying the rescues of some who were genuinely stuck there.

Not to mention looters - just the fleeting thought that a looter might be in line for a handout of MY generosity makes me ill.

And so - thanks to the greedy and the stubborn, I'll offer my prayers. If I have an opportunity to get down there during the reconstruction I'll gladly help out however I can, and contribute to their economy by patronizing their once-gorgeous city.

Most of the trouble's in Mobile.  The hurricane did most of its damage up in Alabama.  Anyways, I remember when Andrew hit here.  Looked like a bombed out wasteland.  And I don't think there's anything wrong with staying, I stayed in Andrew and all last years hurricanes and pretty much every hurricane that hit here.  I mean, if a hurricane takes my house and all my possessions, family, etc., I'd rather be dead anyways.  I don't trust insurance companies. They always find a way to weasel out of paying for most of the damage.

[/SAAARCASM ON]

Yes, judging from what I'm watching on the news, all those people CHOSE to stay there. They all look quite wealthy and well-off, like they could afford to hop on a jet and just get on outta there. They all look like they have family all over the place they could have gone to stay with, and the homes they chose to stay in definitely look like typical summer resorts. I'm pretty sure they all had the special FEMA-offered-only flood insurance that is so easy to come by, and are just waiting around for their checks.

As for the looting, oh, well, I'm sure they'll all be SO wealthy from those wet Nikes they're making it out of there with. I'm sure the rafts, the foodstuffs, the juice and water off the shelves of stores that are going to be a complete loss in 3 days anyhow are just going to waste, and those people who just lost everything they know are only doing that out of greed. I haven't seen a SINGLE little kid caught down in there.

[/Sarcasm off]

Jazuela, normally, I have every respect for you on these boards. Your opinion is one I generally value. This time, however, your judgmental attitude toward people in crisis makes me completely sick. I can *somewhat* see where you are coming from, but to me, that doesn't make a lick of difference, whether they 'chose' to stay or not. There are enough folks down there who HAD NO CHOICE that just seeing you justify inaction because you don't want to help those you deem morally 'lesser' makes me sick.

Put yourself in those looters' shoes (so to speak). Poor to begin with, no transportation out of the city, no way to pay for a hotel stay of unknown duration, no family to go stay with, and now, no electricity, no food, no water. I doubt most of them had cupboards full of food to begin with, and now, the entire cupboards are gone. I wonder how many of them even HAVE any basic insurance, let alone flood insurance.

Did you donate to tsunami relief? Does it bother you that some of the people in the affected area MIGHT be terrorists? That they looted? Do you *know* if they did or not? How about 9/11 families? Think any of those people MIGHT have ever committed a white-collar crime? Think any of their spouses benefitted from it?

How you can sit here, with internet access, and judge those who have just lost everything they know, people who, all they HAVE now is *what* they are looting out of stores, without showing the slightest bit of compassion, is BEYOND ME. Do you think they and their stolen Nikes are going to make it OUT of N.O.? Not on any rescue transportation mode I can think of. That stuff will sit there, left behind anyhow.

Justifying not helping just because the people on the receiving end of it MIGHT not be up to your moral and ethical standards...that's a pretty slick way to go. That way, you never have to help ANYONE.

[/sending off the pittance she can afford to the Red Cross, no matter WHO's on the receiving end.]

You mean those looters we saw running off with flat-screen TVs, and entire racks on wheels of clothes, enough to help some of the people who didn't choose to stay, but were stuck there? Nope - no sympathy for them at all. None, zilch, nada, and I hope that when they are able, the authorities will identify the people in those pictures and send them to jail - and take all the stuff they stole and give them to people who at least made attempts to evacuate as ordered, but were unable to comply.

There are people in the world who live with less than what these people are reduced to now, in undeveloped countries, and you don't see THEM behaving like feral animals.

Of course you chose to sensationalize the situation, which is how most of the media handles it...taking my post completely out of context with your very first sentence:

[sarcasm]Yes, judging from what I'm watching on the news, all those people CHOSE to stay there...<snip>[/sarcasm]

And if you had chosen instead to focus on what I actually said, rather than what you preferred to decide I implied, you would have seen otherwise. You would have noticed I said I WILL be helping out once things settle.

But you go on ahead and sit in YOUR comfy chair, at your computer, using your electricity, and judge ME on MY decisions about a place I plan on helping out. If I could afford it, I wouldn't be sending money. I would be THERE - at ground zero, doing whatever I could to help in the hospital triages they've set up, working with the people organizing reunions between the stranded folks at the Superdome and their families.

So go ahead. Get all pious and self-righteous. Or - don't. I really don't give a fig. And if anyone wants to send me to New Orleans, PM me and we'll talk further. I'm willing to go.

You know, I'd go if I could, too. But, I can't. It's a financial impossibility. The best I CAN do is send in a small donation to an organization that I know is already on the scene.

As for seeing people in 3rd world countries behaving like feral animals, SURE I DO. Like Paul McCartney sang, "People are the same where ever you go."

As for focusing on what you actually said...there were a lot of 'if's in your statement. You didn't say you WOULD, you said "If". Like a bunch of the rest of us, all you CAN do right now is pray. If you were sure the money would be spent as you'd want it to be, you'd give, but since you have no control over who gets it, you won't.

Did you really expect that whole series of statements to go unchallenged?

There's not much I can do in this little corner of the world that I have. But you know what? I *can* put myself in those people's places. I don't know that I'd be taking plasma TV's, but I *might* take a cartload of clothing for myself and my children if everything we had otherwise had been ruined/lost. I can see myself being unable to evacuate, because of no money or transportation. I can even see being a basically 'bad' person and just doing it because I could get away with it for the moment. When all around is chaos, sometimes it is easy to get caught up in that chaos. It's not right, it's as terrible as price-gouging. I would NOT be proud of myself for having looted in a situation like this. But there's still a part of me that 'understands' why people would do this, even to the extreme of plasma TV's. And that part of me can't see punishing all for the actions of the few.

Those people most likely will be prosecuted. Then, yay, we'll have to fund their trials and imprisonments, as well as our insurance premiums increasing across the board anyway. Until that day comes, maybe you're right...we should all just withhold aid to that region, until all the looters are rounded up for prosecution. All the people who decided to try and weather the storm should be prohibited from ever receiving aid. Shoot, maybe they'll all just drown riding their plasma TV's and pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Darwinism at its finest! Cremation: cheaper'n prosecution and incarceration!

Go ahead and call me self-righteous, while you take up a collection *for YOURSELF* so that you can go down "once things settle." Money spent on YOU going down there later surely couldn't be used by the Red Cross *now*. It's not self-rightousness I feel...only compassion, sadness and distress that people will be able to justify NOT helping those in need via your exact arguments.

I hope your trip to the region, later on, goes swimmingly.

How does people being wealthy or not have anything to do with it?

Assuming someone has no family or friends outside the affected area, it still is not a tough choice whether or not to evacuate. Lets see:

1) Stay and either die or have to live in some shelter or hole in the ground when my house gets obliterated.

2) Leave and maybe have to live in a shelter, car, or something else.

Not a tough decision. The end result of both is similar, with #1 having a chance that you're dead. I wish all of life's decisions were that easy.

With few exceptions (emergency workers, random elderly with no family to help them escape, metally ill homeless who have no idea what is going on, etc.) dying to a hurricane in this day and age is just Darwin Award material.

It is easy to get sensational and focus only on the few people who truly were in such a horrible condition they had no options (see my list of exceptions above), but a lot of people who chose not to leave and died were just really stubborn, stupid, lazy people who didn't have enough sense to leave when they were told to evacuate.

As for the looters: with the exception of looting food, water, and other essentials, there is no excuse.

I can understand where you're coming from, and I agree with you so far as people who go to the flooded out Walgreens are not criminals, they do it out of neccesity.  But not all looters are justified.  For instance: one man's "house" (collection of rubble) was looted of what could possibly be his family's last items of value: his wife's family jewelry.  

It wasn't that much, but looting material possessions that are not a neccesity is uneccesary.  I am generally lenient on food and water looters, as long as they don't steal from other people.  But the moment they cross the line of taking what they need and move on to stealing things they don't even need, and taking other people's much needed food, my sympathy ends there.

I learned early this morning (somewhere around the 6:10 a.m. range) that the water system that keeps New Orleans from flooding broke either last night or earlier today, so this means that my statement is sort of negated.  That's not to say that Mobile isn't in a lot of trouble, but New Orleans has more trouble than I thought it did.

Now going back to the earlier statements about going there, I could probably drive there, but I think local people should solve local problems. The reason I can speak of this with some experience is because I've lived in Florida all my life and when Andrew came our way, I had to endure similar conditions that the people in New Orleans went through. I'll let them deal with their problems, and I'll deal with mine.

I simply wish I had tears enough to weep.

Five days. Five days of no food or water. How could it take the government five days?

My heart goes out to anyone in New Orleans: the victims, rescue workers and relatives.

As an Australian living in Melbourne I can not believe the sheer ignorance of certain posters. Let's begin with a few basic facts that have been ignored through stupidity, capitalistic/Republican ignorance, or both:

[1] The levee walls were only constructed to withstand a category 3 cyclone; Katrina was stronger than that.
[2] There was concern for a long time that [1] would prove inadequate.

So please desist from Darwinistic blame-games that these underclass scumbags are so ignorant of the American way portrayed in soaps that they deserve everything they get. It's not THEIR fault that the engineers couldn't devote enough money to doing a proper job with the levees. New Orleans was clearly unlucky; it missed out on the pork barreling or governorship of any of the Bush clan. Unfortunate that.

Certain posters might not give a toss about the New Orleans victims. So let me present something that you may care about: the image of your country that appears on my nightly news. I see the poor and black folks left behind in a living ####. It shows me what America really stands for behind the glamorous facade of Bold & The Beautiful soaps. I see a welfare system that chucks poor folks onto the scrapheap so when Katrina comes they are truly stuffed. I see the looters get hold of some guns. Now, where did they get the guns from? Hmmm, you all defend your "right" to bear arms under your constitution? Interesting. I see George Bush's America where the statue of liberty with its line about the poor being cared for is made a mockery of.

Then I read in this forum that certain posters are, at best, reluctant to give aid because these welfare bludgers - surely the detritus of our time - should have got out. I hope these people never decide upon a medical career. Their hippocratic oath would be rewritten as:

[1] Anyone who is sick must prove that it is not their fault.
[2] in the above the onus of proof is entirely on them.
[3] If 1 and 2 are not satisfied then the patient can just go to ####.

Andrew Thornton
Melbourne, Australia

mudnutx, please spare us the commustic bullcrap.

America is about providing OPPORTUNITY for people. It is each person's duty to take advantage of that opportunity to provide for him or herself (and his or her family). You get equality of opportunity, not equality of result. The result is up to you.

The Statue of Liberty says nothing about taking care of the poor. It says, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" so that they can come here, in a land of opportunity, and make something of themselves. It does not say "give me your lazy, incompetent, unwilling to work losers so the hard working people here can take care of them." I already have children. I don't need the responsibility of taking care of anyone else just because they happen to be poor. That isn't my responsibility. To the degree that I am willing and able to help others financially, I do (every year, through donations of both my time and my money), but that should be absolutely and completely MY CHOICE- not someone else's choice, and sure as heck not the government's choice. America crushes the rest of the world in charitable giving, so apparently this works pretty well.

No country in the world even comes close to approaching the charitable giving of Americans in any disaster- whether it takes place in our own country or abroad. So kindly stuff any of your absurd blather about Americans not helping the disadvantaged (particularly during a disaster).

Finally, acting like people do not have a right to decide when and where to give THEIR money that THEY worked for is simply outrageous. Where do you get off telling other people when and where they should donate THEIR money? This will not be the only cause or the only problem ever that needs financial generosity from people. If someone has concerns about the possible misuse of their money, they should not donate it. They should donate it to a cause they feel more strongly about. There will be an enormous amount of money donated for this tragedy (I have personally donated as have other members of my family). But that was my personal choice and nobody has a right to tell me if it was a good or bad decision, just as nobody has a right to tell someone else if their decision NOT to donate money was good or bad.

And since some of mudnux's diatribe is obviously directed to me, I'll chime in AGAIN..and reiterate AGAIN...

I will not be giving *financial* aid to organizations. You do acknowledge, don't you, that there are DOZENS of other ways to help? In fact I -have- been helping in other ways, since before the storm even hit. That people have chosen to ignore this and focus on my wallet instead of my deeds is not my problem.

I posted here - created this very thread - as an attempt to help BEFORE the disaster struck. Because I'm just Joe Citizen living way up in the northeast corner of the country, without friends in high places, I thought maybe *someone* here might know someone in FEMA or in the armed forces or in New Orleans...

who could tell the powers that be, that the small craft needed to be saved BEFORE they couldn't be saved. Obviously no one here knows anyone with that kind of influence (or maybe someone does, but didn't think it was important enough to act on it), because just as I feared, they didn't have enough boats that were shallow-bottomed enough to get through the muck to rescue people. They could have - easily. But they didn't. Don't say I didn't try. I just lack the resources and posted in forums I frequent in the hopes that someone WITH the resources was listening.

I sent an e-mail to CNN with a suggestion - about getting the waterline to drop dramatically by placing strategic breaks in the levee in OTHER parts of the river. Turns out they were planning to do that, but they wanted to block off the first breaks first.

I don't see the logic in that, but hey - I'm not an engineer. Obviously my idea was good though, since the engineers and people who know more about this kind of thing than I do also thought of it (just in the opposite order of what I suggested).

I went to an IRC channel where storm survivors and friends and family and watchers have been hanging out, to let them know that one of the New Orleans residents was safe and sound and passed through my state on his way to Texas.

I went to the supermarket to suggest a coupon promotion where people who wanted to, could give up the value of the coupons they use for their groceries each visit, charge it back to the customer, and use the money "not saved" in a check from the store on behalf of its customers to the red cross. A lot of people don't see the benefit of dropping 2 bucks in a collection box. But they wouldn't think twice about giving up the same 2 bucks that they would've saved on coupons at the checkout.

I'll be getting in touch with my state's government on Monday to urge them to look into bringing bio-fuels into our state, now that bio-fuels are on par (and in some cases even less expensive) than heating oil at its current rate. It is currently available in 5 states in this region, but not here. Tax incentives to growers of soy and corn, and to heating oil companies could make enormous strides in reducing our state's reliance on petroleum-based heating oil, allowing more of it to be available for refineries (who turn it into gasoline), thus contributing to the overall reduction of cost at the pump.

What have you been doing, hmm mudnux? Or are you far enough removed from the situation over there in Australia that you only felt the need to blast people who are closer to the situation?

Looters stealing anything but essentials should be shot on the spot. They are human filth and what they're doing is the equivalent of beating up a crippled person. Filth.

--matt

I'd think being caught with a flat-screen TV being carried over your head while you wade out of the local Walmart is a pretty good indication that you're looting "non-essentials." Particularly in a city that has no electricity for the looter to use said flat-screen TV, hm?

Or how about all them cell-phones people stole, without any cellular service or even batteries to charge the phones?

While clothing is "essential," somehow I get the feeling that the folks carrying trashbags filled with size 9 Nikes don't exactly "need" them all, nor do their infant children, nor their size 12 brothers..etc. etc. etc.

And I'm pretty sure that those hundreds and hundreds of Vikodin, Coedine, Percosette, Darvon, Morphine, etc...looted from drug stores by people who aren't doctors are probably not bringing them home to their sick grandmothers.

And all those guns - I have a sinking suspicion that they aren't going to be used as oars to row their families out of their homes.

It doesn't take an 8th grade education to figure out what Logos was talking about. Perhaps you might consider catching up.

1. It wasn't ironic. You stop violent animal scum with force because they aren't civilized enough to listen to reason. You don't reason with the wolf coming to your henhouse to take your chickens. You just stop it.

2. In terms of essentials, nothing is objectively essential, only essential in order to accomplish or avoid something else. In this case, I'm happy to define essential as "essential to live." Clothing, food, medicine. I still mildly object to looting this stuff for anything but personal or familial use, but it's pretty hard to tell a father with a starving kid that he can't have the food on the other side of that there window. We've all seen Les Miserables I'm sure. I can tell you that a plasma tv or someone's heirloom jewelry is not essential to anyone looting it.

3. I don't speak to the relatives of people who were accidentally or mistakenly shot any more than I speak to the relatives of those who were accidentally shot by police in the course of non-crisis police business or the relatives of those Iraqi civilians accidentally shot on a daily basis. If the bar for lethal force is "never use it because accidents can always happen", then I suggest you're not really living in a realistic world. I'd sure shoot someone who broke down my front door at night, risking the fact that he might just be some innocent drunk guy who thought he was at his house. Further, I'm happy to allow people to drive, even knowing that tens of thousands will be slain every year as a result of accidents while driving.

4. Looting != theft. Context matters, which is why it is called 'looting' in this case and not just 'thieving'. Taking other people's possessions out of sheer materialistic greed by brute force at a time of such extreme misery is so far beyond my notion of human being that I don't place any value on that person's life. I would happily use any means necessary to stop someone robbing my house or a friend's house. The presence of the incredible human suffering only makes the crime that much more reprehensible to me. Aside from rape, I have a hard time imagining anything more violating than someone breaking into the sanctuary that is my home.

Feel free to disagree with my moral system, though I'll point out that I'm happy to respect your moral system without resorting to insults.

--matt

Jazuela, that was a good idea you had to start with. I hope someone with the power to act took note. Even if one person with a boat took it north/west out of Katrina's path and was able to make it back to NO to help one person, that'd be nice.

The_logos, I totally agree with your view. Food, bottled water, medicine. That's what I'd call essentials. Nothing else. There's no excuse (that I can think of - if anyone can enlighten me, please try) for taking material goods, especially at a time like this.

My thoughts - I do wonder why it took GWB so long to organise aid for the people stranded in New Orleans and other areas. Recently there was a russian sub in trouble off the Kamchatka peninsula but it wasn't 5 days before aid was organised. Yes, NO has been flooded but doesn't the US military have helicopters? And how did all the press get there so fast

The press had satellite access and were already there (New Orleans has TV and radio stations, no?)

The reason the coordination was so lousy was because the government was reliant on communications from within. You can't call the state house, as a mayor, if your phone line is dead. You can't radio for the military if your cell phone tower was knocked over. You can't signal on a short-wave if you don't have electricity, or oil to keep your generator running.

They did have communication at first, then they lost it almost completely for a couple of days. I can even understand how they could say they didn't KNOW the convention center was filled with people. They had originally warned everyone to get OUT of the downtown area and head toward the Superbowl. They had to assume (since they had no other options at the time) - that the vast majority of people did that. They had no way of knowing - at that time - that people were going to the convention center.

The federal government had no way of knowing (at that time) that the state government told citizens to go to the convention center. They just weren't capable of communicating this, and most of those feds weren't watching CNN on TV - they were a little too busy trying to figure out what the heck was going on, and where, and with whom.

When they DID find out that those people were there, they had to do something. But they didn't think 3 days prior "Hey - we might get a hurricane tomorrow, that's currently a cat1 but will surely become a cat5,, so let's send a whole bunch of troops to the surrounding area so they can rescue a whole bunch of people we know will show up at the convention center.

They had no reason to know, they had no way to know, and by the time they found out, it was already chaos.

Hopefully people all over the country will learn from this - if the government orders a mandatory evacuation, even if they order one every freaking week for 2 years in a row - LEAVE. Don't say to yourself "Oh posh, we left every week for 2 years in a row and it hasn't been a big deal so far" - because you never know when it'll be the one you really should've left for.

I don't think any amount of pre-arrangements could've prevented the disaster. But the people themselves could've done things to prepare for themselves - because they had almost 24 hours notice and warning to get supplies, food, water, medicine. They knew this almost a full day in advance of the storm's arrival.

Some couldn't get out - elderly, infirm..but did the elderly and infirm all live secluded with no neighbors, no family members to prepare on their behalf? I mean - they knew they were living in sub-sea-level topography. They knew the levees weren't capable of handling anything over a cat3. And they knew a cat5 was on its way.

Regardless of Bush's brain-dead decision to reject funding for catastrophe planning in New Orleans a year prior - the people knew about this the day before the storm hit.

I seriously doubt Bush is involved with the financial decisions on every single city in the US. Last time I checked the US wasn't the old Sovjet Union where you needed a signature to replace a light bulb.

There's this thing called responsibility, and whoever was in charge of New Orleans clearly messed up. The citizens of N.O. aren't exactly cooperating or helping out either. Of course it's nice to blame it all on the president.

Just because they're black, doesn't mean they can't get a job.  I got a job, and I'm black.  I do know that many people are blaming the slowness of the government on the fact that many people there are of dark skin color, but I don't think they're right.  I'd like to think, that in this day and age, racism doesn't play such a strong part in everyday governmental activities.  Of course, I'm probably wrong, but unlike many other folks, I'm not so pessimistic.  

Now I'm not sure that someone in Australia can really make judgements about us Americans, and while you're right about some people, most of us are on a higher level than what you just described.

Contractors mistakenly shot and killed by soldiers.

Yep. Let's keep on shootin' to kill. Especially when they are haulin' those plasma TV sets out of every Walmart. Matt/The Logos has shown immense wisdom in dealing with these lootin' scum-exuding pieces of walkin' trash who have been left behind in the Hurricane.

You people are amazing.

I have been hanging about on these boards for a few years, never bothered posting a retort/response to the issues, just watched it roll by.  Now, I think I have to say something. I'll not post here about my political and personal beliefs, instead, I think I'll ask you all what on Earth you imagine 'fair' to be. People in New Orleans (and, let's remember, in *many, many* other places) are suffering as a result of a natural catastrophe. It happens across our lovely planet, from time to time. America has often claimed to be a very civilised country- and so we expect that they are better able to deal with crisis. I think that the last week- remember that it has only been seven days- has shown the world that through various causes (mismanagement, confusion, inablility to cope with 'unexpected' strains), even the most wealthy and 'ready' nations suffer.

What we have here is a natural disaster. When people compare its damage to the Boxing Day Tsunami, I think that they misjudge the situation. (I would like to add that Britain, not the US, offered the most aid for the Tsunami Relief fund. America took three weeks to catch up with British aid, and even then did not match the funds gathered UK-wide (per capita). Don't believe the hype! )

The tsunami washed quickly over a huge area, and then retreated, sweeping people/homes/villages and towns with it. The devastation was massive, but rebuilding was, in some ways, easier. Flooding stays.  The people affected by the latest hurricane have to regain themselves, with aid, and rebuild what that can of their ravaged cities and towns.

Do any of the people who have posted thus far believe that they are helping? If so, in what way? Do you feel that discussing this, and arguing, and throwing hateful terms about, is helping anyone?

Well considering that the whole reason I started this thread was an attempt to help before the storm even hit, I'd say yeah - I'm helping. On page 3 I outlined some of the things I've already done, or are planning to do tomorrow once my state's offices open for the week. I also dropped off a small donation today at Petco, because they have a fund to help with one of the animal rescue projects down south.

I'm also riding my bicycle and walking instead of driving, whenever possible, to help in a -very- small way in using as little gasoline as I can, since we still have shortages until the refineries are all up and running again.

I'll also be going to the Salvation Army tomorrow before work (another need to drive, but it's worth it in this case) and dropping off around $500 worth of decent-condition clothing I've cleaned out of my closets. In addition I will ask them if they need volunteers to help pack boxes for deliveries to the south, or to homes that have taken in victims. People who are housing evacuees need help too, because they are shouldering a HUGE burden and shouldn't have to shoulder it alone.

Well, I'm sorry, Jazuela, but isn't that stuff you should have been doing *anyway*? You say you've been donating clothing- good on you- but what do you normally do? And as far as biking or walking instead of driving, well, hells, is that unusual? I'm not having a go as such- just trying to point out that we- all of us- could do a feck site better than we do. If something 'special' comes up, we seem all-too-willing to donate money, time, effort to sort the unfortunates out. Ever wonder what we could do in the off-time (when most people are not affected by disaster, but peacefully starving to death, or unable to get fresh water?) ?

And before you all jump on me and say I'm clearly a communist/idiot/liberal, I'll add to the mix that I am a charity worker for a non-religious, well-known society that I cannot name here for obvious reasons. I have loaded lorries bound for Serbia, I have checked medicine packs for a relief effort in Somalia.

AP was incorrect with their report. The contractors were shot at by 7 or 8 gunmen, the police shot and killed 5 of those gunmen.

There are savages roaming the streets, like packs of feral dogs. As it's been said - disasters bring out the best AND the worst in people.

And now there are people who are REFUSING to leave, while rescuers are trying to clear the city so they can drain it. Every single person who refuses is adding to the delays. They *cannot* move forward until the city is evacuated. I say - tell the people who refuse, that their homes are gonna get a black X painted on the roof, and any further attempts by those refusers to get out will be ignored. They had their chance, and they're holding up the entire recovery process with their stubbornness and stupidity. The few, holding what's left of the city hostage. It disgusts me. People clinging to their lives, begging to get out - and these fools are making a bad situation worse.

Let those who intentionally stand in the way of recovery rot.

I normally donate my clothing to a local organization, because the Salvation Army -usually- sells the clothing we bring there, and I prefer to give my used clothing away than see it sold. In this situation, I am confident that the donations will go to the Katrina efforts.

It is unusual because I am disabled, and usually drive the mile to work because walking and/or riding my bike is difficult for me. And groceries are too heavy to carry home when I'm walking, so I'm making two trips instead of one.

I don't know why it makes any difference to you whatsoever what I do with my time, energy, and money, outside of this situation with the hurricane. This thread is about efforts to help the south rebuild, before, during, and after the hurricane hit. I know it doesn't matter to me if you climb the Himilayas every year to rescue lost shephards in blizzards. It has nothing to do with this.

Jazuela,

I've been thinking about you a lot the last 3 days. I've intentionally stayed off this board, because I knew that going off on you is NOT helpful. Like some alluded to, sitting here and typing judgments of others morals and ethics is NOT helpful, and I apologize. Like you, I have been finding alternative ways to try and help instead.

I've written mid-term suggestion emails to the President, MSNBC, FoxNews, my congresspersons, the Missouri state Governor, and a few other media and political outlets (i.e. FEMA). I don't know if anyone is listening: I doubt Bush has time to read my emails. *grins* I, too, have been finding ways to walk more and conserve gasoline, and it's pretty sad that it's taken yet ANOTHER crisis to make me do that.

I talked about what I felt in my earlier post...you know what I feel the *most*? Helplessness.

There is NOT much I can do to actually 'help' this situation. That's why I started writing my ideas in emails to people who have the financial power and clout to possibly implement some of them. It was maybe a useless gesture, but like you, I think getting ideas to the people who can implement them is not a 'bad' thing to do. You've given a great list of other ways individuals who are geographically distant from the massive devastation sites to actually feel like they are helping. Survivor guilt...I've learned what that phrase means, from 9/11, to the tsunami, to this.

Somewhere between 80k-95k square miles have been devastated in this hurricane. Two fairly major U.S. cities have been decimated (N.O. and Biloxi), along with an unimaginable number of rural communities.

One thing that strikes me a lot here is: when did we stop being "the home of the Brave" in the U.S. ? Some of the 'slowness' of the response (and, 'slow' to me is QUITE arguable...response resources are finite, the scope of the devastation here is more than even the U.S. could have been expected to immediately respond to) was due to people being unwilling to go into 'unsecured' areas, such as the convention center. On one hand, I can understand that...nobody wants to die. On the other hand, it makes me *so* sad that people were not willing to take the risk to help out their neighbors. My hope is that the news media IS sensationalizing that reaction at this point...and that more stories of individual bravery will come out as time passes.

My attitudes have shifted somewhat because of this disaster. I've never wanted to own a gun before: now...I am seriously considering purchasing both a shotgun and a handgun. I've never refreshed my CPR training, since 8th grade. I believe I will look for a Red Cross course on that sometime this fall. I've never wanted a vocation in the health profession, but now, I'm considering some kind of medical training, whether it is CNA or EMT or something. You know why these things changed? I realize now...if this ever happens in my neck of the woods, a serious crisis, it is entirely probable that nobody will be able to come to my aid. Self-sufficiency, self- and family-protection, and the ability to be a first responder are some personal imperatives to me now...where I never felt a need for them in the past.

There is so much I want to write, so much I want to say about this sitation. I wish I had started off on a better foot in this thread... though I stand behind my statements on many levels, the tone was out of line and I'm sorry for taking my frustration and anger out on you personally, Jazuela. I *do* understand that we can only do what we can do, and Threshold is right, it's not right to tell other people what they 'should' be doing.

With reflection and much prayer,
Earthmother

Earthmother, Sep. 05 2005,02:21

I think this is the scariest and most depressive statement so far in this very depressing thread.

There are many parallels between the New Orleans tragedy and  the recent tsunami in Southeast Asia.
Both were natural catastrophes, made worse by human short-sightedness, greed and neglect.

In Southeast Asia the natural mangrove vegetation which might have protected the coasts, had been eradicated, and hotels and other facilities for mass tourism were erected in the most vulnerable spots, directly on the shoaling beaches.  A warning system for earthquakes and tsunamis could have saved thousands of lives, even if it wouldn’t have stopped the material disaster.

Large parts of New Orleans was built below water level and the protective walls were inadequate. This was a well known fact for the authorities, who had requested federal funding for repairs. The requests were denied, even though it was also well known that New Orleans was situated in the main path of tropical  hurricanes, and that the protection walls wouldn’t withstand a level 5 hurricane.

In both cases total chaos ensued, the authorities seemed unable to handle the situation, or even grasp the extent of it, for several days, although mass media were quickly in place and continuously issued updated reports every hour over international TV channels.

But there are also many differences:
The tsunami came totally unexpected for everyone, including the authorities. The countries affected were mostly small, poor and underdeveloped, and many parts of the archipelago were very isolated. The catastrophe also affected several different countries, which made communication harder. A large number of the victims were tourists from several other countries, which lead to further complications with the need for medical care and the assessment of the victims.

The American authorities knew about the hurricane and its magnitude several days ahead, in fact the magnitude turned out to be a bit less than predicted. And yet the best they could come up with was to tell all inhabitants to evacuate the city. Then those who obeyed the directives were left to rot without food, water or other facilities for several days, on highways and in ballparks, because the authorities supposedly didn’t know where to look for them. And why wasn’t the National Guard called in _before_ the hurricane struck, to strengthen the walls?

But here comes the really scary part:
In the underdeveloped 3rd world countries the local inhabitants, who had lost all their worldly possessions, were reported by the world press to selflessly share what little they had left with the tourists. There might have been some cases of looting, but I don’t remember any, (and I did follow those reports closely and continuously, since my country was one of the hardest affected from the disaster. Instead, as a direct result of the catastrophe, a 20 year long armed and bloody conflict in the Aceh province of Sumatra was resolved and a peace treaty was signed, because both sides realised that political differences must stand back for the greater needs.

But in USA, the world’s richest and supposedly most developed democracy, armed looters fire at rescue helicopters and contractors. And the National Guard has orders to ‘shoot to kill’, cheered on by several posters on this thread. Already several innocent lives have been lost because of this policy being carried out.

And now Earthmother, one of the nicest posters on this board, draws the conclusion that maybe she should go out and buy herself some guns, because everyone needs to protect themselves in times of distress.

Did it ever occur to any of you that the insanely liberal gun laws of USA might be part of the problem? Did it ever occur to any of you that the vast social differences and the policy of ‘Self-sufficiency, self- and family-protection' might be part of the problem?

I don’t usually bash USA. But instead of bringing out the best in people, like the tsunami did, this disaster seems to have brought out the worst.

It's hard, isn't it? To sit in our comfy homes with electricty and running water and watch vidclip after vidclip of devestation in our own back yard. Knowing that as "individual citizens" there is very little we can do, in a direct, active way. I found out I wouldn't be allowed to go to New Orleans, because I lack the training and I am not qualified (you have to be capable of lifting 70 pounds). I would just end up being in the way, regardless of my intentions.

So it's up to us, as individual citizens, to take a step back (since we already ARE back)...toss our emotional reactions to the side if only for an hour or two. Force logic to kick in. And then look again and see what needs to be done from a distance, and where we can fit in to this scene.

Maybe it's how I'm hardwired that makes me think (and write) differently. When faced with crisis, I get weird. The entire scope of the crisis smacks me in the face. I see every single freaking side of the whole thing all at that same time, in a split second, and I have to remove layer upon layer upon layer of data from my brain until all that's left is me, and what I can do about it.

Only after I've done this process (which I'm learning here through your replies is not normal), can I blast out my emotions. Kinda like one of my recent posts where I said if anyone -refuses- to evacuate at this point, to let them rot in their homes.

Harsh, yes. But I could've worded it prettier - sugar-coated it, and said the exact same thing in a different way and I probably would've gotten a bunch of "heck yeah!" posts in response.

As for guns - not for me. I'm a coward and a pacifist to the extreme, and I'd let someone beat the living crap out of me before I ever raised a hand to another person. It's not a moral issue for me. I -should- fight back. I just don't have it in me to do it. And so - I won't be getting a gun to protect myself or my family, "just in case." Guns creep me out and I won't allow one to be in my home. It also isn't the solution. Remember..

All those people had almost a full 24 hours notice to leave. If they were unable, they could've arranged with their neighbors, friends, families. They had time to do this. I wouldn't wish what happened to the victims of the violence on anyone, no one "deserves" it.

But the only people they had control over was themselves. And for whatever reason, they chose inaction, and now they are seeing the results. People who are normally law-abiding citizens killing others with guns, robbing abandoned homes of jewelry in the middle of a 20-foot flood-filled city..with no open pawnshops to sell it to...there's no logic in what happened to -those- looters. Plenty of logic to the junkies who did the same thing - junkies will do anything for a fix, and will do even worse once they realize a fix isn't coming.

Rapes, attacking and shooting rescuers, theft of non-essentials, hoarding of essentials while their neighbors who didn't evacuate when the first orders came before the storm sit on rooftops dying of thirst...this is what's left of New Orleans. This is what those people have been reduced to, regardless of whether or not they were like that in the first place. That's what's left now.

And that image is why I feel as I feel about the whole thing. Help where help will actually do some good. And just forget the rest, it'll take care of itself. Tragic, sad, cold-hearted and horrible to consider - but that is the reality of it, and no amount of sugar-coating will change it.

Is it absolutely necessary to act like the election cycle never ends?

Do we really have to play petty politics ceaselessly?

I cannot wait for the Bush presidency to end just so I can stop hearing him mentioned as the cause of every problem or the reason behind every solution. Of course, whoever comes next will probably get treated the same way, so I am not terribly hopeful that things will improve.

I couldn't agree more, Threshold. Most people treat political parties like football teams. Whenever the Republicans do something that might be considered a failure, the Democrats will jump on them. And whenever the Democrats do something that might be considered a failure, the Republicans will jump on them.

Can't we just give this up and focus on what's happening in New Orleans instead of what's happening in Washington?

Yeah I have to agree with Earthmother. I'm sure those children weren't terroists, Yeah 9/11 might be terroists, but how about that 2, eh?

Yeah, let's just stay in our comfy chairs, and play muds.

Ilkidarios Posted on Sep. 05 2005,21:34
'Petty politics?' Petty? This isn't really about politics, it's about local and federal incompetence and negligence.
If a democratic government had handled the disaster in an equally disastrous way, they would have received the same blame that is now directed at the republican administration.

The authorities knew, years ahead, that the protection walls of New Orleans were inadequate and that there was a very distinctive risk of large parts of the city getting flooded.
They knew several days ahead that the hurricane was going to hit the city.
You could even deduct that they knew that the walls would break. After all, you don't tell the inhabitants of a million people city to evacuate their homes, unless you have a pretty good idea that something devastating is about to happen.

So since the authorities had the knowledge and forewarning; why the blundering and delay?
Why weren't the walls repaired, when it first became obvious that they were at the risk of breaking? Why wait until the city is flooded, when the costs will be hundreds of times higher?
Why wasn't the evacuation at least organised properly, with transportation and facilities waiting for the evacuees?
Why wasn't the National Guard called in to supervise the evacuation, stop the looting and uphold the peace _before_ the hurricane struck, instead of several days after?
Why were fugitives left to die from lack of food, water, medicine and shelter in the very places they were instructed to go to?
Why did the president of USA feel that he had other more pressing engagements than taking care of the biggest national disaster since September 11th?
And why is this same president now proposing to lead the commission that is supposed to answer these and other questions?

This isn't about what the Republicans 'did', it is more about what they didn't do, and why.

Jazuela @ Sep. 05 2005,09:15
In the light of the government inactivity, it seems a bit cheap to blame the locals for 'choosing' inaction.
They obviously didn't get any help from the authorities, apart from the order to evacuate. They probably didn't expect any help either. Apparently a large percentage of the inhabitants were extremely poor. Maybe they didn't have TV or internet access? Maybe they didn't have any money, or any friends or family outside the disaster area to go to? Maybe they felt that they didn't have anything to lose? And in the cases of people that did have something to lose, maybe they even made the conscious choice of staying, to protect their homes against the looters that seem to be ever present when there is a crisis in USA?

I don't know how many times I have to say this until it sinks in:

THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE WHO CHOSE TO STAY, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD THE CAPABILITY TO GET OUT.

Now - in that all-caps sentence, did you see anything implied that "all" people who stayed, chose to stay? Did you see anything implied that "most" people who stayed, chose to stay?

Respond to what I say please, and not to what you interpret.

I'll point out, that even now, after the storm is over, the troops are in, there are SOME people who STILL refuse to leave. Even though rescuers are knocking on their doors with boats at the ready, practically begging them to leave.

My opinion stands: Those who CHOSE to stay (as opposed to those who couldn't leave) are now seeing the results of their inaction.

So how does this potion of sales work?

Does the player drink it and cause money to be donated to the Red Cross?

*scratches head*

So, you don't care if they die!? They don't realise the consequences of there decision. When, they see the storm they will regret there decision, I assure you. They should be dragged out of the country.

Well, that's what I believe. I also believe you're sick minded. No one deserves to die, no one. They made the wrong decision, and they will see that once they see the storm.