TCPA is an organization of very large companies in the computing industry, including Microsoft, Intel, AMD, IBM, VIA, SiS, and many others, who have banded together to develop hardware and software, legislation and government endorsement, to spying on your computer at all levels.

They will have full access to any hardware and software, files and information you keep on your computer, and they will have full authority using their devices to outlaw, change, or delete anything you have on your computer.

Got an ass or any freedom whatsoever?  Start kissing it goodbye; it'll be gone within 3 years if these guys get their way.  Go to the website I posted as the name of this thread.  Read the faq.  Be very afraid, and sign up to fight this.

-Visko

PS:  This could mean the end of MUDs.

Thanks for the info. I hope more people learn about this kind of stuff going on.

I think people are over-exaggerating on TCPA, but I also think that it is bull****, considering all these huge companies would come together to stop piracy, and try to police the internet. The internet is a beast that cannot be tamed, try as they might, in the end they will just get biten in the arm, and they will bleed to death by the animal that they themselves created.

Hrm? What does that have to do with anything, Ingham? This affects EVERYONE who uses a computer. Everywhere. Many software creators and hardware creators are now including ways to force this onto people (which, essentially, is the main reason people are railing against it so hard). Where you live is of no consequence.

When the major BIOS suppliers incorporate required compliance... when the 'fritz' chip comes into wide-scale usage... when it makes it into motherboards, and the like... when MicroSoft and the others insert mandatory use of those capabilities into their products so that without it you can't use their software, see how much denial and being anti-American helps you.

I'd venture to say not much. But, to each their own.

Palladium and the like are nothing new.  M$ has been working on it for a while - though they did just change the name  to 'Next-Generation Secure Computing Base' because of all the bad press it has been receiving.

Read for more information about Palladium.  Or for additional reading.

I know Bush is fond of saying "if you're not with us, you're against us", but don't you think it's just a bit extreme to accuse someone of being "anti-American" simply on the basis that they're not actually American?

What does that have to do with anything? Ingham's statement was oozing smug anti-Americanism. Doesn't that make him anti-American?

Lot

I love it when people call me anti-something simply because I'm right. I don't troll on these forums, I leave that for IRC. (real time responses are much more fun and people are quicker to anger in a real time chat situation) However, it is ironic that the US, the country which has been the (self proclaimed) land of freedom, oppurtunity and equality, is now instituting laws and regulations against all it supposedly stands for. They barge over to Iraq to liberate oppresed people while their own country slowly becomes an . Besides, in regard to this subject, was in not Thomas Jefferson who said the following:

“I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country” Thomas Jefferson

That said, yes, I'm against the US goverment. Strongly. However, not against the US people.

I'll tell you, if I could I would definitely choose to live in Europe besides USA. Too much blood spilt here for stupid beliefs for my taste.

That's quite a baffling comment. Very little blood has been committed on American soil relative to the amount spilled on European soil and the reasons were generally just as stupid.

--matt

Depends on which part of Europe. Switzerland hasn't been involved in a war for over 600 years if I recall correctly. And the only wars in europe that was spilled due to stupid beliefs would be the world wars, and world war I had a purpose, world domination. Two was just hitler's insanity unleashed in Nazism. Other then that, europe is far cleaner then America, in the sense that it is much older, and in comparison to America which has only been around for the past three centuries, simply pales in the major problems that america has faced, and now faces.

-Delerak

Thats because America's population is one of the worst educated in the First World. Many people here believe the media when they frame stories to make it appear that islam is fundamentally opposed to western ideals. At the same time, they're angry (probably rightfully so) that such a huge portion of our budget is being spent on "the middle-east" (it actually goes to us-based arms dealers and other multi-national corporations).

Of course, this trend will only get worse now that Bush has asked for an additional 87 Billion dollars which, for comparison, is equal to one fifth of the budget of all domestic deptartments.

I think its all an elaborate plan to roll back the last remnants of the New Deal, but that makes me sound paranoid.

- Ryan

You aren't much of a student of history, are you?

Honestly, do a tiny little bit of research. For over a thousand years Europe was nothing but one bloody war after another. Ironically, the only thing that managed to keep Europe at peace for more than a handful of years was the Cold War.

Here is a nice little link to get you started down the road of knowledge:

If you think the US is out of control right now, fine. But your historical revisionism is absurd.

You are truly clueless.

Europe was one big f-ing bloodbath from oh, about 500 BC until 1945. In no particular order: Carthaginian invaders, Turkish invaders, Greeks slaughtering each other, Romans making war on half of Europe, Vandals and Goths making war on Rome, Charlemagne, Moorish invaders, Mongol hordes, the First and Second Wars of Succcession, Viking raids, wars between Russia and Norway, the Hundred Years war, the interminable Balkan wars, the Napoleonic wars, the French Revolution, the Dynastic wars in England, the wars between England and the Scots, the Danish Civil War, the various Frankish civil wars, the Danish-Swedish war, the Livonian War, the War of the Spanish Succession, and on and on and on and on and on. And that leaves out WWI and WWII, both fought for exceedingly stupid reasons.

--matt

Umm... Maybe this doesn't make any difference, but 500 BC? Not counting native history (which I admittably don't know much about), America is a much younger country than that. Also, the wars you listed involved many nations, some now dead. The US grew very quickly compared to other nations, but it's not fair to compare an entire continent's timeline back to a point where the total time to the present is nearly eight times as long as the age of the US, now is it?

(Bleh, forgive me if it's not eight times, my math skills are not great.)

I thought I was stating that as common sense already Eagleon, thank you for clarifying to those here who didn't realize I meant comparison from when America was founded and not the entire history of Europe! Haha. That actually made me laugh. I am majoring in history and of course Europe has more blood spilt in all. But since 1776, Europes wars compared to America's are nothing, #### Britain gave up. Threshold take a look at that timeline of yours and compare each war from when america was founded (one country) to all of the wars in Europe. You will notice that America's were far bloodier and far stupider. At least the countries in Europe were fighting to further their own territory, america claims to fight for freedom, and equality or something like that, I don't even know why we wen't to Iraw now, hah, I won't even go into the politics, I hate politics. Nice of the_logos and Threshhold to educate us though, they seem to be packed full of knowledge.

-Delerak

Even though I am american born I have to agree with that entire post, and I am paranoid and I bet it will go back to the new deal.

So then, if territorial ambition is not a stupid reason for war in your opinion (one of the stupidest and most juvenile reasons in mine) where is all this blood that's been spilled on American soil since its founding for stupid reasons? Do you think the Civil War was stupid? Cause that's the only significant bloodletting caused by war that's happened on American soil since it was founded.

Americas wars were -not- bloodier, by a long shot. About half a million people died in the Civil War. (Of course, if you don't think a war about territorial ambition is stupid then it's hard to call this a stupid war given that the war was all about maintaining the territory of the US.)

- A few tens of thousand people died in the Mexican war.
- Less than 10,000 died in the War of 1812 and the Spanish American War.
- Many natives died, but 95% of that was by disease, most of which was completely unrelated to war and related simply to the presence of Europeans (go read Jared Diamond's Putlizer-winning Guns, Germs, and Steel for a fantastic discussion that includes an extensive look at this sort of thing.)

Of course, these wars were about territorial ambition which, by your (silly) definition is a good reason for war.

So where are all these deaths caused by 'silly' wars on American soil? America doesn't know what suffering is compared to Europe and that's true regardless of what historical period you choose.

6 million Jews died in WWII for VERY silly reasons that had nothing to do with territorial ambitions. That's more than Americans have -ever- lost in all wars combined, on or off American soil, "silly" or not.

And those 6 million Jews pale in comparison to the 50 MILLION that died in total in WWII. Don't want to talk about World War II? Ok, let's talk about the between 20 and 40 million+ Russians slaughtered by their own government between 1924 and 1953. (There's no consensus number there. Some historians, like Rummel, says it's as high as 61 million, while others, like Wallechinsky say it's around 20 million.) Don't like that? Ok, let's talk about the approximately 15-25 million that died in WWI.

Give me a break Delerak. You should demand a refund on your education because they're not teaching you anything. I have a LOT of problems with America, but that doesn't change facts.
--matt

Do you think this is a good excuse for the US government to take away rights granted to its people in the Bill of Rights?? Have you even looked at the so-called Patriot Act?

Typically Liberals advocate better social services for the general populace at the expense of higher taxes. Conservatives typically advocate lower taxes at the expense of social services. So, now that we've cut taxes in a huge way, and also increased our military spending in a huge way, that obviously leaves much less money for our schools. And you say this is on the liberal agenda? Under Bush? Are you crazy?

One day of military operations in Iraq could pay for the entirety of the education budget cuts.

I rest my case...

Good, because the #### thing is bloated! Here are some numbers:

Current Military, $459B:Military Personnel $99B, Operation and Maintenance $133B, Procurement $68B, Research and Development $58B, Construction $6B, Family Housing $4B, Retired Pay $39B, DoE Nuclear Weapons $16B, 50% NASA $8B, International Security $7B, 60% Homeland Security $16B, misc. $5B Note: President Bush does not include any funds for the war on terrorism or the war on Iraq in this budget, which he expects to request later as supplemental funding.

Past Military, $345B: Veterans’ Benefits $63B; Interest on National Debt (80% estimated to be created by military spending) $282B

Human Resources, $593B: Education, Health/Human Services, HUD, Food/Nutrition programs, Labor Department, Soc. Sec. Admin.

General Government, $235B: Legislative, Justice Dept., State Dept., International Affairs, Treasury, Gov’t. Personnel, 20% interest on national debt, 50% of NASA, 20% Homeland Security

Physical Resources, $99B: Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Interior Dept., Transportation, Environmental Protection, Army Corps Engineers, NSF, FCC, 20% Homeland Security

Source:

- Ryan

I see we're going to numbers now. And I am not necessarily speaking the wars only held in american lands. Any war america has participated in has been horrific. Compared to Europes. And Lanthum, Europe is a continent not a country. I am comparing every country in Europe from the 1700s to America up to today, America has definitely had more wars, and spilled more blood. And a dictator killng his own people (stalin) doesn't necessarily count. I am talking full-fledged wars here Logos, waged on other countries. Germany and France for example. America and Mexico, America and Vietnam. America has killed more in war than those other countries, and here are some numbers.

America's Wars Total
Military service during war 42,348,460
Battle deaths 651,008
Other deaths in service (theater)13,998
Other deaths in service (nontheater)525,256
Nonmortal woundings 1,431,290
Living war veterans 17,578,5003
Living veterans 25,038,459

And I'm not talking civilian casualties, just soldiers. Hitler killed the Jews for his belief, which started the war, his army was shredded by america, as was Japans, which can be included, how many died because of the bombs?

Hiroshima Nagasaki
Dead Dead
70,000 20,000
Wounded Wounded
130,000 50,000

.. 90% of Those wounded died within months from radiation poisoning. I think the estimate of deaths from America can't even be calculated, I would guess over 20 million, no telling though, all in the name of freedom and equality. Sure, and now in 2003 we aren't even sure if we have it. Let's go kill some more and call it War of Terror.

-Delerak

I would agree that America™ has been the most ruthlessly aggressive state in the past 50 years... but trying to prove so by comparing our history to Europes is not a particularly useful way to do so. Europe also has a bloody legacy that is thousands of years old, and don't forget that America inherited its aspirations of domination from the old continent.

This new war on terror is just the same old stuff in new packaging. Remember the cold war? Its all about establishing the rest of the world as Americas™ service sector, in the disguise of democracy and freedom. Democracy for those who agree with us, and freedom for those who can afford it.

I don't know where you seem to have been living these past 50 years, but apparently it wasn't on earth. This past war in Iraq was the first war of aggression waged by the US. That's right. A big fat 1. Korea, Vietnam, and the first gulf war were all triggered by expansion of a foreign power. Maybe you would have preferred that the US allow unchecked Russian expansion? Wondering if it would have been fun living under Mao during the "great leap forward"?

Re: Delerak: Compare both Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the Russian capture of Berlin during WWII, in which they lost 300,000 soldiers. Half the total battle deaths of the US in a single battle. The total German military and civilian casualties are unknown to this day.

Or perhaps you'd like to take a gander at the figures for civilian casualties during the German offensive into Russia?

I don't like the current US administration's policies, but the level of historical revisionism that's taking place here is absolutely disgusting.

You were likely not taught about the wars that we didn't send troops to, but instead created foreign militias under ruthless men who would be sympathetic to our commercial interest, or just funded the war with weapons and money.
Here's an incomplete list: Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Angola, Panama.

Do the research, its pretty scary.

And thats not even counting all the popular revolutions against oppresive dictators that we squashed in the name of "national security". Vietnam falls under that category. The threat they posed to us is as laughable as the "threat" Iraq posed.

- Ryan

The United States of America is not perfect. But its less imperfect than anywhere in this great big world.

Love it or loathe it, but thats a fact.


-VT, Proud to be an infidel.

Out of respect for Snoozer and his staff..I've posted my reply over in

To the flames thread then!

Delerak trots away from this thread.

Delerak wrote: Delerak wrote:
So now you've gone from comparing the blood spilt for 'stupid beliefs' in Europe and the US to the blood spilt anywhere in the world by America since 1776 with the blood spilt by any single European country since 1776. Nice little series of revisions you've made there, subsequent to being demonstrated as clueless over and over.

Fine. Germany and Russia. Both have spilled WAY more since 1776 than America ever has. How many times do people have to say this to you: 10s of millions killed by Germany alone in WWII. 20-60 million killed by Stalin.

The US doesn't even come close, and frankly, putting the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and don't forget Tokyo in which American B52s killed almost as many people with conventional bombs) in the same category as Hitler's aggression is just dumb. Hitler's war was pure, naked aggression. The American attack on Japan happened only after Japan attacked America with no good reason.

Intellectual dishonesty to support your political position is just sad. America sucks in many, many ways. But there can be no doubt that the blood spilled in America (which was your original argument despite your attempts to wriggle out of it) pales in comparison to Europe, which was essentially one big battleground for 2000 years, and that the blood spilled by America since 1776 pales in comparison to both Europe as a whole and some individual European countries.

--matt
(I chose not to move my post because Tavern of the Blue Hand is explicitly for discussion of whatever you want. )

Yes, my apologies. They were described as darkening the sky over Tokyo so many of them were employed on the bombing runs. Almost as scary as a A-bomb in those kinds of numbers.

--matt

So just because America is a young country it is forgiven for all the murders it commited in Vietnam, and all the other wars it's had. Take a look at Germanys history. They never had wars that America has had, aside from the world wars, and Germany is a less-civilized country and much older. If anything the younger a country the less war it should wage, if you think just because America is young then it is okay for it to wage war for it's belief's then you are just a naive patriot.

It seems they are seeking for the best intentions, but take a long look at this: If America continues getting involved in wars, no matter what your reason is (freedom, equality, justice, all those other words they use) then sooner or later, most likely later, America will fall like any other empire in the history of the world. Rome tried to do what America is doing, and it is in ruins. Alexander the Great and his father the king of Macedonia, both crumbled because of their wars. If you agree with america's wars then you are just another person who will go down with the country. It is inevitable if it continues.

JilesDM, replying to (Delerak?):
Delerak has been excreting a huge amount of fertilizer into this thread, but the above shows a pretty ignorant view of history.

How about the Spanish-American war, and our other dealings in the Phillipines, just for starters? (Since there's such a blatant counterexample to your claim available, I won't for now argue about Vietnam or other recent conflicts)

Grenada was also not exactly storming our beaches when they were invaded by the US. And that's even before we start discussing the arguably non-invasion actions like overthrowing the pre-Shah government of Iran. Remember that if you dismiss an action like the US installation of the Shah as not an act of war, to be fair you'll then have to count the US invasion of Afganistan as an aggressive war on the US's part.

America has had a pretty respectable record in international affairs until recently (looking at both motives going in and how a defeated enemy is treated), but claiming that the record has been perfect is just as ignorant as Delerak's spew.

Stilton

What kind of nonsense is this? That's like saying, "Well, I'm the best basketball player in the world if you don't count all the pros, semi-pros, and college players."

Yes, I count the world wars. They were wars of naked aggression by Germany and they -utterly- dwarf anything America has ever started. Completely and without comparison. You're just as bad as a flag-waving patriot in that you have no interest in the truth, just your own propaganda.

Further, what's this nonsense about Germany being older? Germany was founded well after America was. At the beginning of the 19th century, what is now known as Germany was a huge piecemeal quilt of hundreds of little nation-states. It wasn't until 1871 that Germany became a nation-state, under the influence of Bismarck and the dominion of the Prussian King. Yes, there were people there before the Germany became a nation-state but then, there were people in the US long before it became a nation-state as well.

Sheesh, I thought you said you were a history major. This is all basic European history.

--matt

Doesn't matter if Germany wasn't a nation, it's been around longer then America, historical writings date back millenias for it, so we can have a better understanding, America doesn't have that, it only has the Native Americans, and they don't know much about their past, and they most definitely do not date nearly as far back as Germany does. Technically, no, Germany wasn't recognized as a country, but it is still far older then America, in the sense that when Rome was running the world, Germany (germania) was populated and had a fairly stable peoples, who have a history, even if they were barbaric in nature.

Now you say that the world wars were worse then anything America started. America unfortunately doesn't work like Germany did, where Germany makes it obvious where they stand. America will just get involved and instead makes war under the guise of television, the media, and then tries to justify it with noble words. If you ask me, I would rather know what a war is being fought for, rather then just sit and be in the dark about anything that America does and acts on. You? I don't know what you'd rather have, maybe you enjoy your ignorant society where you go about your simple lives with no knowledge as to what is happening, except your TV which is definitely not going to give you the truth. I'm still not understanding what we are debating now, I thought it was whether America had bleed more people then Euro-countries. Guess it doesn't matter anymore and we are just trying to get the better of each other?

-Delerak

I'm not sure you ever really understood what was being debated, which is quite sad considering you began it.  You continue to try and assert that America is more warlike than these other countries without providing any type of reasoning behind it other than your opinion.  Everytime you try and prove this your "facts" are either shot down or you try to change what the debate is.
If you want to claim that modern day America is more aggresive than other nations then by all means do that, you will at least have a leg to stand on there.  If you don't like modern day America's war tactics then thats great, I would agree with you.  But when try and claim that the US historically is more warlike you are completely off base.
If this is what you actually want to debate sit down, do abit of research, and then attempt to back this claim up with some sort of facts that actually relate to the topic.

Stilton:
I suggest you look up the definition of war of aggression before spouting off. A state is considered to have commited a war of aggression if it a) initiates aggressions in a manner which is in contravention to the UN charter, and b) is the first state to do so in the conflict in question. None of your examples meets both criteria. I personally consider this past war against Iraq to be a war of aggression, but even that is probably technically incorrect, as a state of war had already existed between the US and Iraq since 1990.

Wow, you just keep putting that big ole foot of yours in your mouth don't you Delerak.  There are more than a few people on this board who realize you need to change the debate just so you aren't wrong.

You don't want to debate each countries bloodshed when they were each respectively new countries because it doesn't make sense to you - more likely it's because you would see just how bloody MOST other countries were when they were young - either within their own borders or outside.  You don't want to debate the World Wars - why, who knows but most likely again because it blows your whole theory away that the US has historically spilled more blood.  You say Germany is older than the US because you don't have much history of North America before the European patriots came over and destroyed it - and yet you don't want to remember all the war the germanic tribes waged.

Well, for those of us out here that aren't buying into your "America has historically spilled more blood in the last 300 years" propaganda, can you decide just exactly what it is you ARE trying to debate!  It's getting very hard to follow your weak###, thin debate!

OHHHH!  And I just Loooove this:
Now I'm no history major ... that's your cup of tea, but isn't the current accepted theory for Native Americans that they migrated over the Bering Land Bridge some 25-30,000 years ago?  And, after migrating south began to establish tribes in what is now called The United States area around 20,000 years ago?  Now just how old are those supposedly stable germanic tribes?  So if you are going to consider those Germanic tribes, it would seem to me you would have to consider the Native American tribes as well.

Oh, and please don't be so stupid as to say that Native Americans don't know much about their past just because you don't know it.  I know plenty about my ancestors.  We just tend to be closed off and not too friendly with outside prying people.  But it is amazing what you can find in written records in some tribal councils and colleges.

One last thing, you keep insinuating that most Americans and only Americans believe their TV's too much!  Man, you are so out of touch.  Every country, from Japan with far more Ads per person than the US, to Iraq and Saddam's propaganda on TV, to Hitler and his burning Books and his Hitler Youth Clubs ... every country and every people has it's own propaganda!  It's money man!  It makes the world go round.  It's not just the US ... your stupid to think so!  I'll quote another good Tool song:

"All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fat### dirty
Dollar"

Here, there, anywhere.  It's all media hype, businesses vying for your dollar, people trying to sell something, governments trying to bolster their ratings.  It's not only in the US.

The Germans had plenty of wars, they were constantly battling Rome. Or does that not get included anymore, whereas the fact that Germany has had a long history (with bloodshed throughout it) does count?

It seems your excluding every fact that doesn't support your case. Well yeah, when you ignore facts left, right and center it tends to become difficult to show you why your wrong.

I'm not an expert on the chairmen of various UN Commissions, but I can tell you that Iraq did not lead the now defunct weapon inspections program. The guys name was Hans Blix. Now its led by a man from Greece named Demetrius Perricos. Where are you getting this disinformation? Michael Savage?

You would be surprised to look into the UN resolutions that the US has vetoed. Then you may have a different song to sing about terrorists in the UN. Backers of Terrorism? Have you forgotten that the Taliban was formed and trained in the 80's by the US military? Have you forgotten that we sold Iraq all of their weapons to fight Iran? If you want terrorist backers look no further than Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan.

Ok, what is your point?


Saddam did this while he was still our ally. We turned a blind eye to his killing the kurds and chose only to interfere when he decided to invade Kuwait. Also, calling the Kurds Saddams people is kind of like calling the Cherokees and Apaches Andrew Jacksons people, or the Jews Hitlers people. Its a stretch of the truth to manipulate your thoughts. A successful one, apparently.

Really, Csmith, try to get a grip on reality here.

- Ryan

logos:
That's a bit of oversimplification for WWI.

JilesDM:
Oh, so we're introducing the UN definition? Resolution 3314? War and aggression had meanings long before the UN came along.

I don't necessarily agree with your definition completely (because of the various well-known problems of the UN), but it is telling that you referred me to a definition but then failed to show just how my examples failed to meet it.

Because I'm sure that you'll agree that the US actions in the cases I cited meet the UN criteria for being warfare*, please describe how those actions were justified under the UN charter.

Stilton

* part G covers Iran and some similar instances pretty well:
"(g) The sending by or on behalf of a State of armed bands, groups, irregulars or mercenaries, which carry out acts of armed force against another State of such gravity as to amount to the acts listed above, or its substantial involvement therein."

Hi...it's been a while since I was keeping track of this thread, so I'll catch up real quick...

Delerak, I like you, but shut up. You're a bit outmatched, and for the most part the_logos and your other antagonists are right.

Meanwhile, TCPA is (as is so frequent in American media) being swept under the carpet in favor of more sensationalist material. Go register and lobby. Then stock up on current computer equipment; we're all going to be reduced to beowulf clusters just to get away from all of this crap in another few years.

One little thing on the current topic, though---

I was bored for an entire weekend a few months ago, and did my initial "Rambo" marathon; hadn't seen them all until that point. Does anyone remember that Rambo 4 took place in Afghanistan, and was actually a glorification about the Afghanis, and how cool they were, and how they NEVER gave up when invaded?

Yeah, and we whooped em in 3 weeks. But we were good boys, and very fair, and did it well within the limits of the Geneva convention.

Uh. ####. We must be God....or our government is lying yet again.

-Visko