I've just got to laugh at some of the absurd claims listed by some of the muds here. Take these example quotes:

"The #1 MUD on the 'net"

"the most realistic combat system ever"

"the largest and longest running massively multiplayer text-based game ever"

"be a part of a game that helped start the MUD'ing craze over 10 years ago"

Do these people actually believe their claims, I wonder, or are they supposed to be tongue-in-cheek remarks in reference to each other?

Also, has anyone else noticed that Realms of Despair has dropped to 29th place?! Strange - when you connect to their website it says "We're #1 by 405 votes!".

That's what a good salesperson is best at...

Outrageous claims.

And sales is all it is.

I think its kind of crappy that muds like the one I IMP on, where it is just a few of us who do it because we enjoy it, have to compete against the corporate muds. You know - the ones that charge you $35/month plus more for the full gamut of activities.

What if there were some sort of "regulating" body that we could use to investigate some of these claims, and if true give some sort of stamp of approval, certificate of authenticity or just a general "thumbs up" for quality.

Along this line, I would like to see someone actually go through and rate some of these MUDs that follow specific themes to see if they actually do follow the theme, and how exact, or if they are just a hodge-podge of different code snippets and areas slammed together with a claim that they are "100% true to the books" or whatever. An example that I notice the most is Wheel of Time MUDs that still have elves and orcs running around.

It is just too easy for someone to claim something, even if not true.

Standard marketing.

You want the blurb of text for your mud to be interesting, to attract players, entice people to play and preferably, to stay (as paying costumers). So reality is often expanded a bit in marketized blurbs, so what? Like it never happens IRL or anywhere else on the net...

By the same token, shouldn't there be a body that monitors MUDs for cheating of votes, and takes action as necessary?

Of late, there has been a certain pay-to-play MUD added that is OUTRIGHT cheating, and flaunting it to the boards. Giving exp to the character of the person who votes? That's just...wrong. That's Medievia-esque (If anyone remembers THAT MUDs actions to get votes, that is.)

-D

While I can't comment about the rest of the games "claims", I will say the following from the Dragon's Gate listing:

"be a part of a game that helped start the MUD'ing craze over 10 years ago"

Is entirely true, it's 12 years ago going on 13 now I believe, if you go check out the history of MUD'ing website (not sure where that link went, but it's out there) you'll see the who's, how's, why's and what's of one of the original GEnie MUD games, and how it's one of the precious few left with ties to the early days of MUD'ing! With everything else up there, an understandable confusion =) I do think it'd be a good idea if TMS both investigated the claims made by the listed games (and removed those permenantly with false claims), as well as took a look at certain games handing out experience, etc. for voting, seems a little against the spirit of it all!

Best!
Colin
Co-Lead GM
Dragon's Gate Staff

Dragon's Gate was launched in 1990, the same year as Avalon , Shattered World, DIKU mud, FurryMUCK, TinyMUSH, TinyTIM, TeenyMUD, TinyMUCK, LambdaMOO, Islandia, etc. TinyMUD and LPmud were out a year earlier, AberMUD was out 2 years before them, and MUD (the original) was developed in 1978 - 12 years before Dragon's Gate appeared.

I don't think we need any sort of regulatory commitee for MUD's and such.

Really, it's like shopping for cars. You just have to decide for yourself, no matter what the ad says.

99% of the time, the people are not serious. If they were the best MUD on the net, they would be smart enought to advertise the MUD, not their ego.

That's an excellent point, Enzo.

There's a quote from the MUD I play..

"If you were the best, you wouldn't have to tell me. Others would tell me."

Well, that's also true with some Star Wars MUDs that are RP enforced. I ventured into one, picked a twi'lek (because the Official Character Guide [Revised]" mentioned that there were some..) and was told that twi'lek cant be Jedi that a noghri would be a better choice. (btw..noghri are lizard type but not Bossk he was a different race.). That would be akin to being human in a Tolkien MUD and being told Ranger isnt an available class.
But yea, there should be some regulation per advertisement that covers the "We're voted #1 in the world!" claims as well as also what their listings say..like it's PK rampant but the listings say it's Restricted.
Speaking of listings, there should also be more different descriptive taglines about the Theme, etc. Take "Fantasy" for example..is it "Conan" type fantasy or "Army of Darkness" fantasy or even "Dragonriders of Pern" type fantasy? Funny how some say RP Enforced and they're fantasy and you spend hours making, leveling, and equipping say, a half-ogre berserker, in a medevil setting, only to get mowed down by a halfling with a vulcan mini-gun and cyber-implants. Sure the listing said Fantasy but if nothing was said about futuristic items, etc, then the player sometimes feels like it was a waste of their time. Same goes for "Newbie Friendly" especially when your Newbie Status goes away at level 2 and Whoops! You picked up that canteen and it just raised you to level 2. Oh well.
Now mind you, not all MUDs do this, but still, there are some out there that just plain ruin a person's time when looking for "that great MUD" if they havent found it already. Just because some MUD has a 500+ playerbase (like Aardwolf which is just a MUD that could be stuck into a catagory called Twink's Fest IMO) doesnt mean it's good. There should be other considerations. Informative webpages, easy to understand help files (if any), etc. Just because 20 people kept voting every 5 minutes for 3 days straight, doesnt make a MUD good or the Best.
Anyhoo..I'm off to play around in the MUD I hang out in where though it isnt listed here, or even ranked anywhere in some MUD mag, imo, it's still a great MUD to be in.

Since this is a thread on bragging and exagerating claims, I thought I might ask a question. Our newest addition, Gemstone III claims to have 'hundreds of thousands' playing it. Is this like when you add all the times every player has logged on or what? I really have a hard time believing that hundreds of thousands play any MUD. I certainly have not heard much, if anything about the game if it is actually this popular. Also, if hundreds of thousands play it, why do they only have a few hundred votes after the last reset?

I don't know where they came up with the hundreds of thousands, unless they're including everyone who's ever had an account with them since their inception when they were still available only on GEnie.

But I can say with fair certainty that they *probably* have tens of thousands of current accounts, though many of them are probably on hold, while many others are multiple accounts all held and paid for by the same person.

They truly *are* a "massively multiplayer" text game. That you've never heard of them is actually pretty surprising. They're the most popular commercially produced online RPG, and the company Simutronics was written up in one of those Fortune-type magazines for revenue growth a few years back.

No, I don't play there anymore (haven't in a couple of years), and no, I'm not offering any opinion on the matter. I've already submitted my review where it belongs. Just wanted to clarify that one point.

Thus the "helped start" rather than single-handidly was responsible for =) You'll also notice barely none from that time are left (or have since moved on to sequals) except for Dgate! I'm more than open to suggestions of a better way to word "hey, we've been here longer than almost anyone and don't plan on going anyplace" than that if you'd like to suggest something! I don't find anything wrong with the comment, but if others do, i'm sure we can change it easily enough, i'd like to think we try and listen to everyones opinion and treat them all fairly regardless of our own!

Thanks!
Colin J.
Co-Lead GM
Dragon's Gate Staff

But how did your mud even help start something which predates it by 12 years?

Probably the same way the world-wide-web helped start the "internet craze" even though the internet had been around for a good 20+ years. They didn't say they helped invent MUDs, just that they helped start the craze. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's certainly a plausible claim.

--matt

Show me another single persistant world that's been around longer than GemStone.

You can't say "there were MUDs before GemStone so GemStone's not the longest running" as no one has said anything along the lines of "GemStone was the first MUD ever!"

I believe this one as well. DGate was instrumental in bring MUDs to the mass-market, along with GS.


I happen to believe this one too, then again, I'm biased.

Re: SimuBubba

You admit to being biased. And you have....4 posts.

Should I even bother to say the obvious comment?

Heh. I know. In Soviet Russia, Bias owns YOU!

-D

I'm biased because I'm the Producer of the game that made the claim, thanks.

I have 4 posts because, in case you haven't noticed, we're new to this site. You have to start somehwere. ::shrug::

Heh.

In Soviet Russia, Newbies post YOU?

No! No! In Soviet Russia, PtP MUDs own YOU!

Hmm. There's got to be a better ISR comment here. I just can't think of it.

But, my point with the ISR comments - You admit to being biased on this subject. You stand to gain something from this subject. You have been posting, what, 1 day? If I have to complete this thought for ANYONE, they need a severe beating.

-D

Yep. Bubba sprang out fully grown from under a rock and proceeded to post here.

He's one sick puppy.

But, to add to the thread...isn't all advertising "bragvertising?" How could it not be?

Bubba might be one sick puppy, but he tries to tell it like it is.

We nub heem! ;D

Firstly, Gemstone III isn't "persistant". Secondly, in terms of duration it only went live in 1995 - and there are numerous muds which have been around longer than that. You might then argue that the original Gemstone went live in 1987 - to which I would point out that the original MUD appeared in 1978, and MUD2 is still around (at mudII.co.uk 23).

Please please..before we all decide to argue which MUD came first online, let us all at least bow our heads in respect for the one mass selling, over the counter text based game that made someone, somewhere go "Hrm..if we put this on the internet and tweaked the code where more than one persons could play..."
Yes..that game was (and is)
Zork

all bow your heads in respect for the grand-daddy of textbased consumer buyable games Zork..

...ok..you may no continue your "Who was here first" discussion...oh and anyone can pay off some MUD Zine to print "This is one of the hottest MUDs around.."..movie studios do it for their movies so why cant some Imp?

Zork was inspired by ADVENT (as was MUD, in case you're interested).

Ugh....when someone says "It's dark!" I still ALWAYS say "You might be eaten by a grue."....the SAD thing is, there are people who say "Huh?" and look at me funny.


They have no idea what they missed.

And this, folks, is why the community dislikes P2P MUDs so much. Still, I have to give Bub some credit - he manages to completely ignore the entire point of the post in which he quoted and responded to.

-D

> > Firstly, Gemstone III isn't "persistant".
>
> Why's that?

If I kill a monster and bury the corpse, then come back a year later, will it still be there (perhaps as a skeleton)?  Or will it have mysteriously vanished?  If I toss a key into the river, will it stay there (rusting) until someone find it - or will it simply vanish?  If I purchase a pie from the baker, does he have to bake a new one - or does another one simply appear in his inventory?  If I kill the baker, does he stay dead - or does he mysteriously reappear out of thin-air a short time later?  The former is a persistent world, while the latter is what Martin Keegan refers to in his article "A Classification of MUDs" as a Groundhog Day system (or a gradual restocking system), and is the typical approach used by most muds.

> > Secondly, in terms of duration it only went live in 1995 -
> > and there are numerous muds which have been around
> > longer than that.
>
> Sorry, that's not correct.

On July 17th 1995, Simutronics announced that it would be offering games through AOL and Prodigy.  On October 19th 1995, Simutronics announced the opening of Gemstone III on AOL.  Gemstone II had been running on Genie previously to that, and the original Gemstone went alpha in 1987 - the same year that Simutronics was founded.

> > You might then argue that the original Gemstone went
> > live in 1987 - to which I would point out that the original
> > MUD appeared in 1978, and MUD2 is still around (at
> > mudII.co.uk 23).
>
> Again, I have yet to say that GS was the FIRST MUD.

You've said that it is the longest running mud.  It is not.  MUD2 has been running for longer, being the derivative of MUD, which was created in 1978 - and thus predating Gemstone by 9 years.

Just admit it.

Kavir's knowledge of MUD history > Everyone else's

I've been doing some more research, and it looks like it changed name quite a long time before it moved over to AOL:




"In April of 1988, GemStone II went live on that service. GSII had a few problems though, so a few years later in February 1990 Simutronics released GemStone III. That makes GemStone III eleven years old."
-- Llearyn, producer of Gemstone III

However that still doesn't make it the longest running mud.  Nanvaent opened to the public in September 1989, and is still running.  DragonMud opened in december 1989, and is still running.  MUD2 opened in 1985, and is still running.  Federation opened in 1989, and is still running.  Even if you count the original GemStoneI date of 1987, it's still two years younger than MUD2 (which in turn was developed from the 1978 "MUD1").

When I wrote up the blurb for GemStone III I actively made an effort to "brag" in a truthful manner.  If I am wrong, I am more than willing to change the blurb, because I really dislike false advertising.

"the largest and longest running massively multiplayer text-based game ever"

Is there a text-based game larger than GS3?  I meant in terms of population ... though I suppose that could be clarified.

Is there another massively multiplayer text-based game that has run longer?  There aren't a whole lot of massively multiplayer text-based games out there.  Again, I'll be happy to change it or reword it.

Being truthful really *IS* very important to me, and I thank you all for your help.

Melissa Meyer
Producer, GemStone III

Not that my word's of any value around here <grin>...

But as someone who USED to play GS, had some serious issues with it, and with Melissa at one point,I will attest to her desire to be honest.

If she says she will change the ad if it turns out to be inaccurate, then you can bet on it. And if she says she has no knowledge that it is inaccurate, you can bet on that too.

And now I'll go back to my private griping about GS and the senior staff, which none of you will have the privilege to hear about because it's nonya bidness.

The Simutronics games have the largest populations of any text-based mud, as far as I know. I wasn't contesting that point.

You mean "mud", I assume. Yes, there are, and I've pointed them out already.

Note also that my post wasn't a specific attack on your mud, but rather a comment in general on all the commercial muds which appeared on the listings, making all sorts of claims in their descriptions.

Also - just to note, GSIII wasn't always a "Massively" multiplayer game when they first started out. When AOL went from an hourly rate to unlimited monthly, the game server used to crash pretty regularly. It couldn't support the volume. So to be fair, the claim that it's a "massively" multiplayer game can't really be true til some time after 1996, after Simu's original headquarters burned up and they moved to their current location with a new server.

Massively, meaning consistently (or persistently? <grin> ) supporting well over 100 players logged in at any given moment.

R - who remembers very well getting the echo from staff telling all comp account players to logoff to free server space for the paying customers.

All that has been asked is for you to present a game that has BOTH run longer and is bigger both in terms of game size AND in terms of player base.

I've searched the web, the only games that are bigger are the new flavor of the month graphical rpgs. Yes there are a good many games just as old and maybe a slight bit older then the simu games, but none of them can even come close to presenting as expansive a game or playerbase as simutronics. The Largest game after simutronics that I've found is Dragon's gate, their numbers at peak time are lower then the simutronics games at low-peak time.

This doesn't make the game better however, I've played Dragon's Gate and a few of the other Muds out there. They each have their own flavor and attract a different type of playerbase and are all great games in their own right.

However these facts do support and make certain that those quotes are in fact true, and the only way you can really argue with them is to break up the quote into several other quotes, which in turn nullifies your entire argument.

As I've said, Gemstone didn't become a Massively Multiplayer game until around 1996. There existed massively multiplayer games prior to this, some of which are still running.

This is 2002 not 1996, and at the time, with the population trends for games, Gemstone was a massive multiplayer game because its population was high compared to other games out there. Just because 200 people isn't a big deal now, doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal 6 years ago, hell pretty much any game out there would have killed to have a playerbase of 200 people total in 1996 let alone having it at peak time.

You're missing the point. The question is whether or not there exists any games that were massively multiplayer PRIOR to Gemstone, that are still running. The reason for the question is to determine whether or not GS is in fact the oldest AND longest-running massively multiplayer game. The two are inclusive by virtue of Simutronics' claim. If only one is true, then the claim is untrue. The claim is untrue, because GS is NOT the oldest massively multiplayer game. They are definitely one of the oldest, but certainly not THE oldest, since they were not massive until 1996.

The FTC and the local Better Business Bureaus (who handle most consumer complaints about deceptive advertising practices) have paid employees.

THE solution to MUDs that lie, cheat, and engage in other behaviour that a player may find unacceptable is right here on this board and others like it. Word of mouth has it's effect.

I will say that I do not give much creedence to rankings. Voting scams like rewarding players for their vote, vote bots and such are only a small part of it for me. The primary reason I do not pay much attention to rankings is because I am the only player qualified to judge wether or not a game is fun for me.

I will liken it to movie critics: Siskel and Ebert often gave thumbs down critiques to movies I enjoyed. Of course I wasn't picking them apart like them, I was just there to be entertained.

I would look at any pronouncements by any group or committee only for facts such as "This MUD claims to be 100% customized and we found MANY rooms where this was patently false." Any subjective content such as "This MUD claims to have a rich RP environment, that was non-existant for us," I would give much less consideration.

What makes me happy with a MUD is not necessarily the same as what another would find enjoyable. All we can do is share our opinions and try MUDs that sound appealing to us individually rather than some committee or group that may or may not share our notion of a great playing experience.

Just my two bits worth.

Jazuela, I've never heard any official definition of "massively" in respect to muds, other than the MMORPGs (which presumably just called themselves that because it sounds cooler than "graphical mud"). The definition of "massively" is therefore a subjective one, and could reasonably be applied to any game which supports more than a few players (eg Gauntlet is a multiplayer game, because it can support up to 4 players - a "massively multiplayer" version of Gauntlet might be one that could support up to a dozen players). By that definition, every mud would be a "massively multiplayer text-based game".

Caledric, I do not have to counter both parts of a claim in order to prove it false. If someone says "this car is the cheapest and fastest car in the world", I can disprove that claim by either (1) finding a car which is cheaper, or (2) finding a car which is faster. I do not have to find a car which is both cheaper and faster.

Let's hear it for 'graphical MUD' over the inane MMORPG, for that's what Everquest and company are: graphical MUDs. Same animal, different size.

How so? You can talk semantics all you want, however, lets be realistic.

If I'm talking about say.. a online flight simulator. I'm not going to say something like, Jane's is a massive flight simulator. I'm going to say AW or Warbirds is.

You take what you are talking about in context. If I say GS3/DR are the largest massive multiplayer muds, do you honestly expect to counter that? Even in a server crash (which are extremely rare now) we have 100 players on within a minute or two at most.

The term massively changes with the times as well. When "online" gaming first became somewhat popular on Genie, the numbers generated by Gemstone and Air Warrior where out of this world. Yet now? There a drop in the bucket. Hardly worth considering.

Actually you do. If you say "I am selling the cheapest fast car" you can find a car thats cheaper, but is it as fast? You can also find a fast car, but is it as cheap? Unless you negate both the comments, they still hold true.

You have to not only find a CHEAPEST car, but it has to be FAST as well. Fairly simple concept here.

Xabaras
Dragonrealms player

But there's a logical difference between "the cheapest and fastest car" and "the cheapest fast car." And it is the former that is the proper logical analogy in this case.

In order for someone to disprove that your car was the "cheapest and fastest," all they have to do is demonstrate that there is at least one other car out there that is either faster or cheaper, at which point all you have is the fastest car which also happens to be cheap, or the cheapest car which also happens to be fast.