well..
The stupid idea of writing this message came to my head after Seth's words that he left RoD just because he had trouble with immortals..
Then I heard some really good words on TV
'You should not hate your country if your government hates you'

I think this is the case..
if you really loved your mud,you wouldnt left it just because some imm caused trouble for you..look for solution in yourself..And,hey,I hope you'll come back..whenever your home is..


(now dont look at this one as on another of my dumb jokes.This whole message IS COMPLETELY SERIOUS.No dumb 'kinda funny' replies here,oki ?)

.

I'm surprised, Seth; I've known Kali and Moonbeam for years, have never sucked up to them, and yet they've always been polite and friendly to me. Are you sure you're not confusing "too stubborn to suck up and because I taunted those who abused their power" with "verbally harrassing the staff and fellow players"?

I'm sure there was some animosity on both sides, but somehow I highly doubt you're as innocent as you make yourself out to be. I've heard similar accounts to yours about myself, in the past, so I know how these things tend to get highly distorted. However if you take a dislike to an immortal, starting a harrassment campaign against them is going to get you banned on any mud - regardless of how justified you feel your motives are.

but hey,anyways,
if ya want,I can work on getting you un-banned

the thing is 'if you want' ...

i dont think it will be too much trouble,but you must want it yourself,ya know...

For the record, I never started an harassment campaign. By the time immortals and other players becan to harass me, I didn't even know what spamming nor flaming ment. Besides, why would I want to harass a person for no reason? An yes, I'm sure i'm not confusing anything right here right now. Keep your opinion objective, otherwise ditch it and put it in the nearest garbage bin because I have seen enough yes-heads and people who go like "Oh my friends don't like him so I better be a shallow moron and start disliking him as well" on RoD already. No flames intended of course.

Secondly, how are you going to decide which story is true then? I mean, if you want to judge about something you have to hear both versions of the story, both sides of the conflict, and then judge about it in an unbiased and objective way, which you can NOT because you already told us you're good friends with 'them'.

Hey Seth..so whaddya think,you want me to try to talk with imms about getting you back ?
I would be really glad to help..

hey KaVir..
thanks for joining my attempts to help Seth,but I tend to disagree with you..
Maybe about first part you were right,maybe.I dont have so much experience or whatever.
But the last part of your statement IS NOT right at all..I've got good examples about it..

For example : One girl really loved one guy (they met on a mud,but i suppose it wasnt just a mud for them.They were really close,even thought never met IRL,and dont worry,they wouldnt be cross if i post this one)
So.One day something went wrong.They were really angry one with other,and especially that guy was..Heh,he said to her to leave him alone,he thought he wanted her to leave.
But she kept 'harassing' him and whaddya think ? I dont think I know happier people now,at least when they're together.
And its not a single example I know.

hm..well,wouldnt it be much more pleasant for you to rain down rightful vengeance upon their heads ?

And hey..I dont think such losers could mean anything for you..Nor any of their words..

Sometimes there are no people RL
whom are worth at least 1/3 of one
single little mudder.Even if you cant
see him/her online.That I promise.

I'm not saying that there aren't awesome people on MUDs...if you noticed I did say that I have found a few people from MUDs that have become RL dear friends of mine...Hell that is where my boyfriend and I first met...on a MUD...what I am saying is that where I play there isn't. I see people that make themselves feel better at the expense of people like me. Open flames in global channels by players...yah definately quality people there. No self-confidence in themselves unless it is behind a computer screen where they do not have to face a RL person. I just don't understand I guess why people have to be jerks to the ones that are self-confident on the game and RL in order to make themselves feel better. It doesn't help the pbase that some do that...players and Immortals alike...my kingdom tells me what they say and asks if I want them to kill them daily.

But again I'll reiterate...not all are like that...my BF and other dear friends that I associate with outside of the MUD are beautiful people and I am sure there are a grip more like them out there...to all those that fall in the catergory that I write about...come on...give me a break...work on yourselves instead of tearing someone else down.

Seth, I'm sorry you feel hard-done-by, but you need to understand that if you go around harrassing and badmouthing the staff of a mud, they're not going to let you play there - it makes the mud look bad. It doesn't matter how you justify it to yourself, other people will still perceive you as being obnoxious and offensive - it doesn't mean "the imms are turning people against you", it's just a natural reaction towards someone who acts in a very rude and brash manner - in much the same way you've attracted criticism on TMS.

For some reason all this talk of how someone speaking to you in a friendly manner makes them your "good friend" reminds me of Quinten Tarrentino's character in From Dusk Till Dawn...

hey Mia..Im a jerk you're talking about..
I dont feel any good at all when i gotta talk to someone face to face,at least when it comes to meeting new people.So what ? As for me,yea,I would REALLY be glad to see some awesome people IRL,i didnt had any chanse before so what ?
Yea,its stupid ,especially for me when i dont have inet at home , so my whole life depends now on such little things like when i can get to someplace with inet...
And,yea,its kinda stupid when I sometimes cant see my only friends just 'cuz i dun have inet at home...

But hey ! I like it so much more then it was year ago,when all i was doing were stupid c-games..and hey..Its better to have online friends then no at all...

KaVir, please believe me when I say that the worst thing I did when I talked about taunting was openly questing an immortal's deciscion concerning something that just happened. I fellt a person had been punish too harshly and I only got told to shut up when asking it the imm in person. Then I took it to the public channel. That's what I mean by taunting the power-abusive imms. Openly questioning their already rather provocative deciscions...

And for the good friend thing, we'll leave that as a misunderstanding. Apparently I misread what you said and understood it as that you know Kali and Moonbeam like good friends for year already.

so Seth..anyways,you didnt answered to me..

Hmmmmmm, "The artist formerly known as Ingham". I recognise that name (mainly because "Ingham" is similar to my surname rl), and I'm also sure we've been over all your gripes with RoD before on the old forums. Trying to drag people's dirt through the mud when they're not here to respond isn't the way to get any sympathy, and I bet that those of us who admin on largish muds will recognise your tone anyway...

My guess is that you're just subject to the cynicism and burnout that many a mud player experienced with their mud, said and did some dumb stuff, got told off by some imms and now you're trying to make them out to be complete bastards. Hell I have people that would swear I'm a bastard who I've had to "deal" with. But whether you like it or not, at the end of the day you're there as a housegues, and if you do 'jerkish' things, which they have the right to judge, then they have the right to kick you out.

Point being I just flat out refuse to believe that these people are as bad as you make them out to be. I've played RoD once, never met them, but, as the risk of generalising, I've met and dealt with your type I'd not hesitate to kick you off my mud, siteban etc if I considered you a pain. You'd be welccome to mail the appeals imm but if I could justify it then you're stuffed. That's just the way it is, nothing you can do about it. Bitching about those imms is just going to make you look stupid as going to another site and doing bad reviews cause you got kicked off is the oldest and lamest trick in the book =).

well,hey..my point is that siteban is too harsh anyways.
I dont think it should be applied to ANYONE at all.

Sorry, you simply don't have a clue =). You obviously have no experience at actually running a MUD...

right,i never ran a mud,but hey,I didnt saw anyone who would deserve a ban before,and somehow,i dont think Seth is that kind of person..

heh,if such evil spammer liar and at all,bad guy like me isnt banned,why would they ban Seth ?

You wouldn't ban these?:

- people that tellspam teenporn URLs
- people that harrass little girls by email, ICQ
- people that try hacking
- people that dole out really nasty, viscious, HORRIBLE abuse to others when they're under pressure, to the extent that the others want to leave the mud
- people that plain old constantly insult or provoke others in "OOC" ways. Your mother is a slut. etc

well,maybe..but somehow I dont think Seth is such kind of person,and hey..I never seen jerks like that..

Read 4, Shao. Read 4.

It does apply in this case, even based on Ingham's story.

I've had LESS then stellar interaction with Moonbeam et all, and I know RoD is corrupt, but I do know if someone was sitebanned without reason, heads would roll.

-D

Seth, I have to agree with you.  The muds these days and their immortals seem to be power-hungry children. No offense to the good ones, but the bad ones sure are spreading the fame.  I myself came from a mud where the same thing happened to me.  Mine started with trying to HELP one of the female immortal there realize that she was being used and manipulated by a young man.  Her husband also immorts there and together as a circle of friends tried to help her.  Eventually she left the mud for a time and then the trouble started.  One of her other immortal friends blamed me for "running her off the mud" and proceeded to say that I had been responsible for getting another immortal denied.  (he was, in truth, denied because he did not complete his ONE and only work assignment)  The damage was done, and slowly and carefully the other immortals and even most mortal groups began to hate me and feel malice toward me.  It became so bad that when a problem did arise--a young man was stalking me on the mud, gating to me at every chance, harrassing me for hours on end, even with the forget command--that the immortals merely said that "they dont believe me enough or trust me enough" to investigate my claims.  A similar occurance happened when a mortal tried to get me in trouble by saying things to the immortals, I quickly sent a log I had managed to make of the conversation and it was quickly ignored, with these words "these logs will only destroy some good friendships" and it was tossed aside.
I will admit because of this mud, I have become a very cynical and untrusting person, and that perhaps is what led me to log almost every conversation I have ever participated in after the initial trouble began.  Because of that cynicism and mistrust, I am able to prove every word I have spoken here today, and I am sure, had Seth the same temper and determination and cynicism I had, he also would be able to prove his points.
Many of you want to chalk this up to "he isnt as innocent as he looks" and "he's done his part in making that happen" but if you'll refer back to my story, the only thing I was guilty of was trying to help someone who was being used and manipulated, even her husband(irl mind you, not on the mud) agreed that she needed help.
So, once again, Seth I do feel for you and your case, and I hope that you will one day find a mud to replace the one you lost because of such devious acts. Know that you have sympathy and support, for you are not the only one.
Cerise

A few comments on your post, Cerise....

I know stuff like this happens. It has happened to me _many_ times in fact. However, that is one of the reasons for me designing my current MUD. In the end, it will be completely without staff - it will not need it.

Staffed MUDs tend towards favoritism and, well, unfair/biased administration. However, RoD is one of the biggest MUDs. If someone was banned completely without reason, then heads _would_ roll, I know as fact. Seth, as KaVir has said, is only saying his side of the story - the opposite side has had no chance to tell their story. Honestly, if Seth pulled the same crap he has detailed - questioning immortal judgements, taunting the immortals, etc. - on a MUD I ran, I'd likely kick him off as well. According to his own words, he was trying to undermine the immortal's authority _publicly_. From an imm point of view, that ONLY causes harm to the MUD, and brings no benefit whatsoever. By not taking it higher, and promptly taking it to public channels, in his OWN statement, it proves that he only had bad intentions.

You people may not like what I have to say, but honestly, that's what I see it as. I've been on the short-end of the stick many, many times - my most recent, The Sea of Storms, for "melodrama". A RP-enforced MUD. Banning for "melodrama". _That_ is the short-end of the stick. What Seth claims...-shrug-

-D

please Dulan..can you at least try not to post negative posts about muds w/o proving them ?

You dont like it - its your bussiness.But if you want to tell others that you dont like it - please,prove that you have why to do not like it,allright ?

It looks like I know you're bad cuz you're actually very bad.In one word : Childish

And,about Seth..Im also ready to help..Anytime..

Oh puh-lease.
I've been playing muds for 10 years. I'd say that generalisation is so profoundly untrue it's laughable. There were bad apples then, there are bad apples now. But to tar all muds with the same brush is quite preposterous. And this ant-RoD guy basically just has "issues". And, as someone who has had to deal with many people who have had "issues" in the past, my profound sympathies goes to the RoD guys, given their name is being dragged through the mud by someone who got banned for what appears to be perfectly legitimate reasons.

There, I replaced the untrue bits of your posts with something a little closer to reality. Happy trails.

Note: I'm starting to hate ikonboard.

Sadly enough, that applies to you quite well, Seth.

May want to pay attention to what you post, as it could reflect back on you (amusingly).

-D

I'd love to point out the flaws in that, but I don't have the time because I have to go back to college in a week. Other then that, nice attemp-... Hang on, my sarcasm-geiger-counter just melted down...

College? -glances at the calender- Interesting. You go to -insert obviously racist statement here- U?

Now, onto a more serious post. Seth, you are insulting people over their honest opinions, simply because their opinions do not fit with your schema of the world (Pay attention to that word, anyone who has any interest in Psych. Unlike Seth's wannabe-psych babble, or the "issues" idiocy, that is a real term, and probably a good diagnosis of "why" Seth is so vindictive here.). Anyone who does not fit with said schema, you attack viciously regardless of what was stated in their opinion. As I said in a much longer post, something had to come from you in order to irritate them. However, in your schema of RoD, you never did anything, and you were perfectly innocent. Even the most corrupt imm must have a reason in order to act. According to you, their reason was you questioning an immortal's decision on a public channel, without taking it to a higher up first. That would righteously **** me off if you pulled it on my MUD. Questioning immortal decisions on a public channel without taking it to a higher-up undermines the staffs authority. Only a fool would tolerate that in a player that plays their place for free.

-D

Yup. And that was your mistake.

The lessons to draw out of this are:

1. Don't question an imm's decision within 48 hours, no matter how questionnable it seems to you.

2. If you really feel you have to question an imm's decision, you should do it by mail, and try not to sound attacking (use formulas like "in retrospect, I felt your decision was a bit harsh" above "you were too rash in dealing with blah")

3. Never, ever take it to public channels, be it comms or the in-game newsboards.

4. Realize that no matter how discontent you are with the administration, it is their game. It is their voice which decides how the place is run. A MUD is never a democracy, so you'll be on the losing end no matter what.

5. There's no point in arguing that the players "make the game" as much as the staff, no matter how true it is. From their point of view, if you have a problem with the way the place is run, you're not their target audience. Your only right is to disconnect, and trust me, it's easier to do out of your free will when you're discontent than to cope with a ban.

Nice story. Would it work if I told you there were literally NO immortals who were of higher level and who were concerned with general gameplay? (You seem to know RoD so well, that you also might have to realize that it's the home of the SMAUG codebase and that the higher level immortals/coders spend most time developing SMAUG.) Well, one immortals was, but he is involved in a RL relationship so I HARDLY doubt that complaining to him about it would have worked, because like you said, "RoD is corrupt."

As for the pseado-psychological crap you spray around, I talked about it earlier. I don't feel like wasting precious time over THAT again. And about my college, it's called "Technisch College Ede" and it's a dutch one, yes. I suggest you first try to pronounce it properly before trying to make fun of it, my dearest repetetive friend.

Psuedo-? It's real, Seth. I'm a Psych major, among other things. While by no means am I qualified to be a doctor, I can fairly accurately figure out what is going around in most people's heads. You, my friend, are an extremely easy one to figure out. We do not fit in your schema, and thus, you attack if we try to contradict it.

People, as a whole, are not sheep. Learn that, Ingham, and know it. If you expect them to fit your mental picture, they won't. And you will be attacked for trying to fit them in.

As for your post: You took something publicly which should not have been taken publicly. I agree with the decision to punish you, albeit not in that manner. I would have merely deleted your character for a first offense, then banned on second. Of course, considering the story that you posted, there was far more than a first and second offense. And since it is obviously biased towards your view of the world....

-D

Then don't try to act like on, Dr. Fraud.

Once again, you lash out as I violate your schema's.

Ingham, you somehow read, but do not comprehend what I state. I do not know many that have that dubious distinction, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

-D

Au contraire, mon petit ami, I lash out because someone dense with a closed mind has a really tough time accepting anything but his version of the truth. For example, I apologized for spamming and in public said I'd refrain from such activities, yet you keep on calling me a spammer while even Orion and KaVir have already read my apologies and accepted them. Yet you keep calling me a spammer, because otherwise you would have no reason at all to act all anal like this. Besides, accepting m,y apologies would mean I am right and how can anyone but yourself be right in your "scheme"?

No, you'll be branded as a spammer forever, bud. You just won't get flamed over spam anymore. Pretty simple concept.

As for the rest - I'm not attacking you over spam. I'm attacking you over acting like a self-righteous asshole who cannot possibly see that a MUD may have been right to remove him from it.

Simple enough for you, neh?

-D

Bitter and ignorant people rock!

Ever thought about a career in politics? I hear they could use more close-minded people with an IQ not higher then their age like you and Bush.

Interesting. And now you jump to insults of my intelligence.

Unfortunately, I know a rough estimate of my IQ - And, unless you believe in the Bible, no human has lived that long, Sethie-poo. If I was that old, I'd be a medical curiousity.

But, bitter? Not really. Irritated is closer. I get ****y when irritated - and you have managed to irritate the **** right out of me. I'd make a remark about sphincters, but you'd then go off about gayness, as I expect your next remarks to hover around as you've turned to the juvenile, but classic, 'IQ' insults that so many newbs-wannabes fall back on when they cannot think up a good response, but are too young to realize that they should concede the point.

Now, it is very simple. RoD may have been right to ban you. Now that your support group is beginning to realize that, you turn on the people that say that RoD could have been right - we do not know their story. We violate your schema - and you attack us, because you do not wish us to fit into it. Or you may not know how to fit us into it, yet.

-D

Well yes, remarks about your intelligence certainly are allot more subtle then just calling eachother "assholes" all day long, now isn't it? And don't worry, someone with such a deluded view of the world is already a medical curiousity by default. I'm sure they can find ALLOT of interesting anomalies inside that warped brain of yours.

You seem to be stuck on your favourite all time stopword which you use when all other tactics fail. I suggest you use a so you can one day find a more original replacement for your word "wannabe", because it's getting quite boring and dull, much like your personality.

Support group? What support group? Are you doing some cheap crack again or something? Because I see NO support group anywhere around here. And besides, I don't think a close-minded twat like you would care about hearing two sides of a story before passing a judgement. You seem to have been busy proving that all along, mistah.

Dulan : You keep telling about your rightness,and about our close-mindness,and stupidity,and yet you cant accept the fact that somebody ever could call you like that.Why by the hell you think others around are all so stupid, and you are ohsoultrasmart ?
Try to do not be such a powerplayer,eh ? Id say,you got much more problems then me+Seth+Xanferious+any 3 more people.

And,I think if Seth has changed his name from Ingham,he had some reasons to do so,and you might consider calling him Seth now,not Ingham.

by the way,Seth..im somehow getting a strange feeling that maybe we should better just ignore Dulan ? somehow,I feel he doesnt likes reading,or at least understanding posts of others too much..