This is an official goodbye; I am leaving these Discussion Boards.

It is not a decision easily taken; but a fact is that I’ve finally run out of patience. I used to enjoy this site a lot in the past, both the articles and the boards. However, in the last 2-3 years there has been a steadily down-going spiral. The latest flame thread, about the pope, was one of too many examples, and yet not a low-water mark; there have been several others worse than that.

And now Medievia, a mud known to be making money from stolen Diku code, has been allowed back on the site, and is already spamming the review section. 15 ‘reviews’ in less days, which look more like staff-written promotions than anything else, gives a hint of what to expect in the future. And as a direct consequence there is another flame thread starting, induced, as so many times before, by the_logos, who finds it appropriate to welcome the code stealers to the site, knowing well enough the opinions of most posters on this subject.

'Professional courtesy' he calls it, and then in almost the same sentence tells one of the nicest posters on the board  to '**** off'. How very courteous, and how extremely professional.

I just don’t have the patience for yet another flame war. I have actually been thinking about leaving for quite some time - this is just the last straw.

No doubt some posters will rejoice in my leaving. Others might miss me a bit, just like I am going to miss them. Just for the record I will state my main reasons for leaving, for those that are interested. The rest of you can stop reading here. Don’t bother responding either, I won’t be here to reply.

My first reason for leaving is my distaste for the unbridled and shameless commercialism that seems to invade almost every corner of the internet nowadays, and also has taken over this site. Spam mail, blinking and flashing banners, pop-up pages, misleading or false advertising and unethical promotion methods are all equally irritating. The blatant, aggressive, repetitive and – in my opinion – often unethical ways some mudowners use to promote their games are getting severely on my nerves.

This site once used to be a great place, where Mud players and administrators could share problems and experience and get input and advice in return. I used to contribute quite a bit myself in the old days, both with articles and posts, since I believe in sharing. But gradually I find my own motivation wearing thin, and I don’t seem to be alone in this. The articles have dwindled to almost nothing and the same thing applies to the discussions. Most of the threads nowadays are either flame-wars or blatant adverts - (usually for the same group of commercial games, who keep the threads on top of the listing by adding meaningless comments to them as soon as they are about to drop out of sight). Even the sparse threads that show an initial potential of becoming interesting are either pushed off the recent topics list by this spam, or go up in flames too as soon as certain posters enter the discussion.

Which leads me to my second reason for leaving. There are some frequent posters here, who I have come to dislike intensely. This has nothing to do with the muds they run, as they no doubt will try to claim. My dislike is personal, and it is firmly grounded on several years of observation of posting patterns and general attitude, on this and other discussion boards. One of them in particular, the_logos, is habitually either condescending, chest-thumping, rude or downright insulting, and frequently posts things that are offensive to a large number of people. His habit of dismissing all arguments that doesn’t suit him with insinuations that the opponents are just ‘bitter kids’ or jealous of his ‘success’ doesn’t make him any more endearing, it just makes him look cheap.

I find my dislike for this poster steadily growing, to an extent where I sometimes cannot resist taking a pot-shot at him, whenever he posts something I find particularly stupid and/or offensive – which is a bit too often. This is of course disruptive to the discussions. I admit to being at fault here, and I am taking the consequences of not being able to control my dislike, by leaving the boards. As they say in the Wild West; ‘This town ain’t big enough for the two of us’.

But apparently I am not alone in my sentiments, since several other posters seem to react in a similar way. You might argue that he is the innocent party, since he is the target of the flames, but it isn’t as simple as that. When even normally polite and balanced posters like Valg and Angie attack him, there is a reason behind it. And the reason is the large number of obnoxious and offensive posts that he has made in the past, and is still making, on this board as well as others. The TMC thread that Tyche linked to in the Pope thread is just one example, there are several more.

There are posters on the boards here whose opinions I respect, even when I don’t agree with them. There are others whose posts I generally enjoy reading. I am going to miss those posters. However, those that I like and respect seem to enter less and less in any serious discussions here. Perhaps they, like me, have given up this site and only linger here out of old habit.

Once I used to enjoy coming to this site. Now I find myself getting in a bad mood just by reading the list of recent discussions, which too often is spammed by the poster that I dislike the most and his cronies. In my opinion this poster is allowed too much of a free rein by the list Admin. This may be another manifestation of commercialism (or  ‘professionalism’ or whatever you label it), since you don’t bite the hand that feeds you. This is probably the reason why a mud like Medievia was allowed back on the list too, in spite of the fact that it is offensive to a majority of the posters.

I know that the list owner makes his own decisions and that, as a guest on the boards, there is little or nothing I can do to influence these. So I am taking the only option left to mudders that stopped enjoying a game any more – I vote with my feet, by leaving the place.

So have fun, y’all. I intend to seek my own fun elsewhere from now on.

It's sad to see you go, but luckily, leaving this forum is not the same as leaving the community - so instead of saying goodbye, I'll say, "See you around."

Take care, Molly!

I may do likewise - my tolerance level for shysters isn't particularly high these days in the real world, let alone a hobby I spend my free time on. I suppose I'll wait to see how bad it gets.

Yeah, nothing like people who do things like support the mud sites with advertising dollars and create jobs in the field of muds! They're all scum! The people really growing the community are the people running 10 person muds with stolen IP and attacking other muds left and right! Yeah!

--matt

I only see one mud on this site running stolen IP - and as far as I can see, you're the only one supporting them.

So yes, I think 'scum' sums you up pretty well.

Me too.
Hope the rest of you enjoy viewing the gay Mercthievia banners that will be sure to follow, and and the dimwitted banter of Slutress the II, and the band of merry retards and sockpuppets that will follow.

See you elsewhere. No not on Mudmagic, not on TMC but on a site that's immune to sucking commercial c o c k s.

Well, I'll take your word for it, although I imagine it's hard to see much at all from where your head's currently located...

Ms O'Hara, you will be missed. Your thoughtful & respectful posts gave some class to this site, unlike the_idiotlogos. Oops... gee I insulted the schmuck... oops did it again, gosh you think he might try to get be banned???

Just tell him that you're in the process of ripping off someone else's codebase to run as a commercial mud, and he'll soon be... polishing your shoes, etc.

It's sad to see two of my favourite people leave in one day. I admit I had a very similar knee jerk reaction... but if all the decent people on here should leave, it would only help those who drove them away. Maybe that's the point, but so far they haven't managed to usurp the whole site for themselves. So far...

While I realize Molly has already left, I felt that responding to her post was the best course.

Although I have nothing against the_logos (though his stance in the matter, frankly, floors me), I cannot abide muds such as Medievia, or websites that welcome them.

A bad business decision, I'm sure, but I am pulling our advertising dollars from TMS (pittance that they are) and have asked Adam to remove both of our banners. Also, I am removing my own MUD from TMS.

I will miss TMS, flames and all. Adam has always been professional and courteous, and my decision to leave TMS is in no way a reflection of my opinions of him.


--
Rhuarc
MudDrake Hosting &
Tarmon Gaidon

Well I thought i would support the effort and annouce I too will not be visiting here anymore. Many of you do not know me but i've always been a lurker, well for many years. And as someone who runs a Mud resource site who has cleansed his site from all references to sites that support muds running stolen codebases. I'd like to welcome anyone wanting to join the protest and maybe TMS will hear our voices.

I think you give him way too much credit. Having failed to run his own mud discussion forums, I'm sure he's more than happy to make TMS his private little playground.

Good luck, Faggy McFagwich. It's not that I disagree with this guy, but I like making fun of people who can't retaliate.

Who cares if O'Hara leaves.  Though, if I recall, she and some other particular forum-goers did engage in quite a few of their OWN flamewars, with none of Mihaly's malarky.

Entertaining indeed...

The sinewy, brown-haired young man sits back, rooting for KaVir.

Okay. Nauseating. They're trying hard to make this forum insufferable for anybody who does not opt for permanent brain damage.

I'd like to hear an official answer to one question, before I decide whether to join those who left or are leaving:

Is this just a passing phase, or a direction TMS wants to take?

Will those who stay really have to put up with:

-- thieves and liars laughing in our face
-- useless trolls, ****bears and other annoying pets spamming the crap out of the forums with pure noise, with no moderation anywhere
-- smartasses who stir flames at every chance, then yell: "It wasn't me!" and play the innocent victim?

Yes, I hate being at the receiving end of the "official answer, please" request, and I don't envy Adam this situation he's in... but I'd still appreciate a reply.

I would appreciate a response to that as well, because I too am seriously considering leaving this place behind if this is the kind of behaviour and morality that's going to be tolerated and accepted here.

Bad enough Med was allowed back. Expected that logos would ignore their past and present actions and welcome them back anyway. What I didn't expect to see was all the rampant trolling that's been happening afterward from people who are obviously affiliated in some way with both organizations.

Would very much appreciate some sort of official response on these matetrs.

Can't we all just get along? No!
I pass the motion to have an arena match and name the winner is right and the loser wrong in the eyes of gods and men, KaVir vs the_logos, we can charge 10 bucks a head and throw in mud wrestling between Molly and Me, c'mon guys it'll be fun!

I'll be the popcorn vender.

Skipicus says he has the popcorn franchise for MUD-related fighting events, and that he will stare you to death if you intrude on his territory. I'm just relaying this for him, as if I don't, he will beat me.

--matt
P.S. In the words of famed UFC ref Big John McCarthy, "LET'S GET IT ON!"
P.P.S. I'm joking....unless Kavir really wants to fight me, in which case I say we use it to promote text MUDs and invite the media. I bet there's never been an event like that. Heh heh heh. I'm chuckling just thinking about the press release. Heh heh heh.

Angie wrote May 09 2005,22:27

No doubt this flamewar will die down in time, like so many others before it.  There is a limited time to how long people can keep the flames up without choking on them.

No doubt that is what the_logos, and his new best buddies, the now admitted code-stealers Medievia, are calculating on.

But maybe they shouldn’t be too sure about this. The next smug post from the_logos, Soleil or any of their sock-puppets, will ignite the flames again. Medievia will probably not be able to use the review section as their new promotion board much longer. The ‘counter-reviews’ telling the truth about what their mud is founded on, (theft) are already starting to appear.

No doubt Medievia will soon be denying all reviews about their game, like IRE already are doing.

And let me make another prediction: Ms O’Hara may not be the only one leaving this board in protest, even if she was the first to take the stand. There are many more who are dissatisfied with the way these boards are turning and who heartily dislike having to wade through seas of flames and moronic promotion threads orchestrated by the_logos and his sock-puppets to get to the few worthwhile posts. Most likely we can look forward to similar sock-puppet threads from Medievia too, they have only just started.

The Medievia issue is something that most decent mud-related people feel very strongly about, because it not only violates a licence that most of us honour, it also violates our sense of right and wrong, of ethics and moral.

So maybe there will be a great number of posters deciding to leave in the next few weeks. Maybe these boards will end up being the sole playground of the_logos and his cronies, just like the ‘exclusive’ board for ‘professionals only’ that he once tried to start. We all know what happened to that board. It died, from lack of oxygen and fresh opinions.

And maybe this is what is going to happen to TMS too, if all the valid posters decide to take their discussions elsewhere.

After taking it on the chin over a couple of my posts here, I chose lurker status over active participation.  But enough is enough.

Forums exist which do not allow discussions to deteriorate into shouting matches and ego contests.   Would you argumentative types behind the veil of the 'net shout so loudly and be so quick to leap into flamewars if standing toe to toe?

I ask because I've owned a tavern for the past 20 years, and during that time I've watched quite a few shouting matches and veiled threats arise from what started as quiet discussions. Even in that environment, folks tend to be more polite to each other than some of those I have seen posting on these boards.

I'm proud of our game and extremely proud of my staff at our game. They work very hard to conduct themselves with dignity and respect for a service environment which we have spent years to mature.  The MUD community has come a long way very quickly since its inception, and we're proud to be contributing members to this evolving presence. I do not wish our game's name and reputation affiliated with such nonsense as I've seen here since the Welcome Back post.

Some of those who flame the most claim to have been involved in MUDs for well over a decade, so I know they can't be 14-year-olds conducting bully-level playground fights, now can they?

Adam, I'm sorry you've had to see the interchanges conducted on your premises. I've appreciated your professionalism and quick response to the very few problems we have had.  

So we will seek a more mature forum within which to participate.

Flamers - please.. either grow up and act like members of a real gaming community, respecting each other and reflecting well on the games you represent, or take the bickering back to the playground you do not seem to wish to leave behind. There is no middle ground.

I'm sorry, but I have the opposite impression. In the last several months, I haven't seen synozeer put his foot down, except twice; to remove a mud listing breaking the site rules (brought to the attention by the_logos), and to ban a poster who was spewing garbage at IRE.

If you're trying to shut down the , you're doing a great job. Noone finds those forums with all the spam being generated by certain people.

This will be my last post as well. Take care you guys/gals (you know who I mean).

{Warning -- Lurker/non-coder with two royals to contribute}

Molly, even if you aren't reading this, YOU GO, GIRL.

I don't know the "who's who" around here, nor do I really want to. I vote for my little underdog mud, put in my semi-advertising 'reviews' of it when called upon to do so, and occasionally browse the ongoing flamewars, just to see if there is anything worthwhile I can learn from people who actually think things up.

There rarely is.

I go back to my game, complain about how annoying the threads here are, and get back to killing.

I read around, looking to see what ideas work other places, so I can suggest interesting things to my Admin and Staff. Only ONCE, have I EVER actually tried to get them to read a thread here... only ONCE have I EVER found something worthwhile that could be adapted and utilized.

The rest is just sad.

I'm not 'leaving' b/c I've never really been 'here'. I'll keep voting for my free mud, with its own original code.

But you people all should know that you don't look professional. You look like children. You discuss things here that should be kept inside your games, or at least, in personal discussions. This is a VERY exclusionary environment, and people like me on the outside, those of us who fill up the vote slots, know our voices are silenced here. We don't even matter.

But, the cash I PayPal'led to another player on my MUD sure supports our banner here.

It is tough for me to justify that money spent.

I love my Game, I want to help it in any way. I'm MORE than glad to send that money if I think it is supporting the place that I love.

Unfortunately, my cash is *really* supporting these boards, and I resent that. It's like advertising in some scummy local skin rag, and hoping someone decent reads the ad.

Ain't gonna happen, in other words.

Our MUD actually (stupidly, apparently) believes/believed that this site would be an asset to us, that to be associated with TMS would be good for our game, and the MU* community as a whole.

The question has become, for me, anyhow... IS it?

Is TMS a waste of time, a waste of my click and a waste of bandwith on our website?

That this thread exists, started by a poster who, though volatile at times, generally contributed things I would read and actually spend time thinking about, pretty much answers that for me.

Well with the official response from the administration made and their decision to leave Medievia in play despite their open admissions to stealing the Diku code, I'm gone.

I know most of you probably won't care because I've never been very active here, but I just can't stand by and have anything more to do with it. I've removed my vote button and am removing all links on pages I maintain that point to this site.

One day I hope the admins here realize what kind of message they're sending and rethink their decision.

Gosh. Stop spamming.

Again I see an argument that's taking place over something that's already settled... she's left... why argue? It's not like anyone's convincing her to come back with their awfulness...


Because the underlying cause of why valuable contributors like Molly are leaving is still present and unresolved.

Of course, there's some level of disagreement as to whether people like Molly and Tyche were "valuable contributors." I see Molly as a total wanna-be with no proven experience and I see Tyche as what is probably an intelligent guy, but hidden beneath a facade of 5 year old emotional maturity. I know I'm not the only one either. One of the admins from a non-IRE top 10 mud mailed me saying he/she is almost tempted to send money to Medievia just to thank them for being responsible for getting rid of Molly.

Yes, I realize some of you are going to flame me for stating my opinions on people even though I'm merely replying to a post in which someone states his opinion on people.

--matt

*chin* I see. So... resolve it by verbally beating each other over the head? Sounds like a plan. At any rate, yes, there is an underlying cause here... and by continuing yet another argument we are simply fuelling that cause. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Also, Angie, your 'Gosh. Stop spamming.' post... isn't that considered spam? *murmurs about hypocrites*

*snickers at Matt*

Threshold would.

But just think how many people would send in money if it would get you to leave...

My post was pure signal, even if you failed to catch it. Your posts are almost pure noise, and you sure make a lot of them all over the forums. Why should you care that Molly or anybody left? How can you even have an opinion on the topic, when you didn't know those people? Do you even know what the focus of these forums is supposed to be? Who contributes and who does not? Or what the reasons behind Molly's (and others') leaving are?

Before you post, make sure you have something to say.

Calm down, sweetheart, I never said I didn't care that she left. You're right, I don't know these people, but sometimes it helps to get an outside view. Those of you emotionally invested in the situation are too worked up to see what anyone else is really saying.

Also, yeah I make a lot of posts. It's because I do have something to say, even if you're too pigheaded to catch it. KaVir also makes a lot of posts that don't seem to really be saying anything, leastwise anything new. At least I don't constantly post stating and restating something that has been said six thousand times.

I think the word 'drivel' would be more appropriate. You've posted a few times, but haven't contributed anything of any worth.

And you've read all 819 of them, have you?

*mumur* no, KaVir, I haven't. I don't wish to subject myself to any further repetivity.
And don't you have something better to do?
At any rate, since I've hit a sore spot, I'll cease posting here because this -is- becoming spam.

No, all you've been doing is trying to call anyone that disagrees with you a time-wasting hypocrite, inbetween making cutesy little quips about how great Achea and Matt are.

If you're going to whine about people stating and restating things, hows about you stop doing it yourself, eh?

Obviously I don't post often but most of you know what I do post is well thought out and appropriate given our forum topics or thread involved. My personal feeling as both HImp for a world and TMS moderator for two topics is that we're better seen and not heard unless really needed.

Many of us seem to have sincere distaste for any type of support provided for anything having to do with the proven thieves of Medievia and have either left or in the process of leaving. I understand Adam's decision but in light of the response so far, I strongly urge him to reconsider.

That being said, I also have to comment on the sycophantic ramblings of Kopribear who obviously has no clue as to what's going on in the big picture. No Kopri, KaVir is not a child but he's ****ed, Molly was well respected and gone, so is Samson, Welcor and quite a few others. I realize you have no clue as to their contributions, but pretend it's a homework assignment and perhaps research a bit before you attempt adult communication in an adult environment. While I admit the_logos often contributes meaningfully he then erases it with asinine, self-serving and usually pompous statements or actions which earn rebuttals. No offense meant Matt, it's just your nature I guess and it probably comes from the success you've earned.

I'm pretty unhappy about Synozeers decision and especially the joyriders on the flame train, but I'm proud of our fellow mudders who have taken the moral high ground and expressed displeasure at accepting Medievia back. I'm sad so many have left already and unfortunately I don't see the exodus slowing down.

I've been trained with the premise that *quitting* wasn't really a reasonable or logical measure to affect change. I'm sorely tempted though in this situation which would mean the end of any interaction at all with the community. I honestly don't know yet...I'm incensed at seeing Medievia thrown in my face and I certainly don't want it to become a 'the_logos' stroke festival. We'll see...

Iluvitar, et al:

Remember one very significant thing. If you leave, Medievia wins.

May I suggest a pro-active stance please?

For those of you who run muds that give experience points, or builds, or training points, or equipment, or pay-to-play, or pay-for-perks, whatever. Take advantage of the new mass inclusion of Medievia players. These folks are going hog-wild on reviews, which means they're coming here to this website in droves. This also means they are prime targets to become new players on YOUR game.

Offer them something! "Try our game for a month, if you stay after a month we will give you a free month's subscription!" Or "If you keep your account active and get involved in at least 2 quests for the next three weeks, we will give you your very own custom-described weapon, or a level 8 spell of your choice!" or "Come play MYMud for a month and we'll give you a 5-level boost!"

You get the general idea. It looks like there are some players who've been pretty annoyed with Medievia, who still play it because of the friends they've gained while there. Bring them AND their friends to YOUR game, and let them enjoy something new together, and make MORE friends! Have a "add a friend" contest, I mean heck there's tons of things you can do with this. Be creative people. It's why you started running muds in the first place isn't it? Because you wanted to express your creativity?

Nope, not Threshold. God you're paranoid.

Hehe, I am probably being quite snooty when I say this, but...

Do you really want someone whose sickeningly loyal to Medievia, even know they know the game's past background and history?

You may think that such loyalty would shift to your own game, but in all likliness, it won't. These players are coming droves to write reviews and freely discuss their disgrace of a game in public now that it's allowed back into the list and try and draw in new players. If they wanted a new game, they could have found one ages ago.

I'm sorry to see Molly go. She's contributed a lot of articles to TopMUDSites , and I've always enjoyed her writings. She's one of the people that has put considerable thought and deliberation into developing ideas about building, and at least one feature on our MUD was sparked by something she posted. Her frustration is understandable; I've noticed a lot fewer discussions that are worth following on these boards over the year or two.

I'd suggest, though, that perhaps if we want more signal and less noise, that people a) make an attempt to post things that spark useful or interesting discussions, and b) ignore the noise. A lot of it could be nipped in the bud if people would avoid responding to trolls.

Well, one thing can be said for all the noise: it makes topmud forums at least have SOMETHING on them. I remember going weeks without a single new post.

I have found Molly's articles "Top Three Twinks" to be quite accurate (unfortunately). So she definitely has some experience.

I'll have to agree with Matt on the point about O'hara.  I liked Tyche though.