Some may remember a discussion about this topic a year or two ago, but I feel it was never covered extensively enough. Personally, I feel that the races in MUDs are too derivative and lacking in originality.

Unlike what was said last time, I do feel it is possible to create original races. In my mind though, the majority of races in MUDs today are derivatives of Tolkien or Star Wars or whatever main-stream book or movie series you can name.

What are your opinions?

A lot of them are derivative. But that's because of demand, really. Most people *want* a race they're familiar with. They fall back on known archetypes because it's easier to get into their heads.

I've introduced a quadrapedal pack race on one of my games, which actually requires at least three or four people to play, and it's hardly ever tried. But people will play the dickens out of a bipedal felinoid or a standard humanoid.

At some point, as a game designer, it's understandable that you might just say: Give them what they want, not what you think would be cool for them to try.

I went quite out of my way to give the existent races at Lands of Aethar more uniqueness. The biggest change of those, was the ability for centaurs to actually be mountable, which took a fair amount of coding since stock SMAUG utterly abhors the idea. In the end, like Brody said, almost noone ended up using any of the "non-AD&D" races anyway. I guess it's particularly bad on a text-based game. In a graphics game, the players would go "hey I've never heard of any of these races before, but hey, that ones picture looks like it would make a good warrior". The last thing a bewildered MUD newbie wants is to have to permanently choose from a big list of totally alien races......

My advice is, if you go this route, strip the MUD down to 3 or 4 races instead of the usual dozen. In the race selection screen, instead of just a dumb list, list each race on a separate line accompanied by a blurb about the race. Maybe even throw in a race which is "obviously human" or whatever. Think "Starcraft", look how successful it was with the hitherto-unknown Zerg and Protoss. Blizzard would've never pulled that off if they'd tried to make 20 different playable races, and if it weren't for the Terrans, most SC newbs would've never gotten a foothold.

That's another concept I despise: too many races.  I feel that, like Erdos said, a game should have only a few races.

What happens when games start having heaps of races is that they just become more and more stock with each iteration.  

Lets say the fictional "GeneriMUD" starts out with one race: the "Boreals", maybe a plant-race, sort of interesting.  Then they'll get to "Sylphes", an obvious elf derivative, but still moderately inventive.  Then they'll just have "Dwarves", which as the name suggests, are stock D&D dwarves. What happened is that GeneriMUD went from having a few, inventive races to being packed with boring stereotypes.

It makes you feel like the game developers started with some interesting ideas, but then ran out of them, so in order to artificially pack their game with races, they just took the same tired old D&D races you see all over the place.

I know for us we decided to use a mix of "stock" fantasy races and some original ones. The reason for this was so there are some things that brand new players will be familiar with, but most of the races will be original ones that experienced players(of Ilyrias or just MUDs in general) may be more likely to play. This way we get to have the original ones we want, without scaring off completely new people because of a little thing like not recognizing the races right away.

In the same light, even though we are 100% classless, we have some "starting packages" such as warrior/mage/etc(not with those names though, but equally recognizable) that just auto chooses the basic skills for new players. This, just like races, makes it easier for new players to see something they recognize, but more advanced players will pick and choose what they want. Once IG race can be changed once, and skills can be forgotten and new ones chosen at a level loss(as long as you have the required skills to choose the new one you want, and don't have a "blocker" skill that would stop the choice).

Bit longer than I intended, but the point was that there can be good reasons to have a couple of the "stock" fantasy races.

Inferno has (or used to have) the Chayani. I haven't played it since it was closed, and it's reopened, so I don't know if that race is still available for players.

Chayani are basically big rocks with legs and arms. They are literally created from stone by the Goddess Falia and are her precious gift to the world. The Chayani are incapable of emotion. The closest they come to any manner of emotional understanding of other sentient beings is there own reverence for the Goddess that created them. They can be confused, or feel satisfaction when they learn something they wanted to learn, but have no personal knowledge of hate, love, joy, fear. They believe themselves to be, I guess you could say, chunks off a singular entity, though they don't have a "hive mind." Also, since they are created and not spawned, they don't have any need or desire (or equipment if I remember right) to mate.

They are *extremely* difficult to roleplay and in the few years I played and IMMed there I only saw a single handful of players who tried. Most gave up after a short time. The others seemed to do a really awesome job at giving their chayanis unique personalities without straying from the chayani mentality. I played one for some time, and while I think I did a reasonable job of it, I knew I wouldn't be able to keep at it. It was fun, and interesting and challenging and even educational. But definitely not something you could approach light-heartedly.

I get your point, Baram. Perhaps I shouldn't have made such a broad statement. I was referring in particular to games that proclaim they have "All original universes!" but in actuality have some originality, but mostly stock features.

In the MUDs I've worked for, I've had headaches over some of the races they wanted to allow.  Typical D&D races that adhered to such and such and hated so and so.  I was really surprised by the lack of interest in the original races that the creative department put out for them.  However, there was once instance that I can recall that really made the players avid to play the new race.  The creative department created this odd race by the name of Illchare.  I think the main attraction to the race was the role play intense society the race came from, but then again, the game itself was RP intensive.

Most other MUDs I've been a part of, either as a player or an employee, were always putting out typical D&D items or stock races.

My opinion is that the effort to produce something original should apply to the concept and mechanics, not the name and description of the race.

If you invent a new race and call it a "Ixylotnith", described as being green and slimy with three legs and two tentacles, then it might sound fairly original, but it's hardly something that a player can relate to. And if it its mechnically exactly the same as a dwarf, what's the point?

Take a standard stock mud, rename "dwarf" to "Ixylotnith", "elf" to "Zhproliid" and "halfling" to "Uioptyup" and you've not created any original races. All you've done is obfuscate the existing ones, and I can't see how that improves the game.

On the other hand, take some well-known races and give them unique cultural backgrounds and original implementations, and you end up with an original set of races that players can also relate to. Look at the elven races from Dark Sun or Earthdawn, for example of what I'm talking about.

That's not to say I'm against the idea of completely new races, I just don't believe that giving a race a new name has any bearing on its originality. For example the plant-like "Boreal" race you mentioned - I would rather call it something like "Dryad" or "Treant", so that players instinctively have an idea of what to expect. The originality and innovation would then come into play when designing its special powers and abilities.

For me, the most unoriginal way to handle races is to give them a name and some stat modifiers and then leave it at that. In my opinion, if you're going to have races then they should have just as much impact as classes (to the point that, if you strip out profession-type classes, you're not technically classless - because the 'races' provide sufficient differentiation that they end up providing the same impact as classes, and thus they become the "classes" from a game-design perspective).

Could be an RP aspect of the game.

Yep. We have a similar problem where I play. Nutso numbers of races, a few of which get used to make rapid exp, before reincarnating into something else, then there are a few "major" races. Angel and Demon are top of the list for warrior, priests and sometimes spellcasters. A few others are picked to be specifically spellcasters. A rogue.. If its assassin there is maybe 2-3 that work well, a few more than that with thieves, but the one I picked was Kitsune. The problem... I picked kitsune based on the race description and an assumption (valid at the time) that I would be able to mix spell casting, some rogue skills and priest skills together to produce a well rounded set of skills. I am one of three top level players that is a Kitsune, and one of two such that hasn't ever reincarnated to something else, except once, to fix an alignment idiocy when using resurrection. The other one was forced to reincarnate due to massive bugs in a guild that was shut down to be fixed. We are the oddballs. Everyone else, including the other 4-5 people that still play and are a similar level.

There is virtually "no" integration between the game world and the races, barely any history (though someone is supposedly working on it) and probably 70% of the races are virtually worthless. Imho, the best thing might be a redo of the whole thing, but instead the new staff is heavilly into working out all the obvious glitches, trying to create a more detailed history to connect stuff together and generally improving things that way, while more and more new areas get added on top of it, with no truely consistent pattern. Sometimes this bugs the hell out of me, when I bother to think about it. Though, frankly, having everyone go, "Oh, your a Kitsune? You must be an assassin then?", probably bugs me more than anything else. lol

There was very little thought put into designing a consistent world and not enough proper testing before it went live. The fact that there is supposedly a revamp of the race system and history in the works, only helps those of us that have been around long enough to hope it happens. Frankly some of the stuff we have is "too" distinguishable, thus the pidgeon holing of some races into specific classes, with insurmountable weaknesses, but that also acts against some of them, since the weaknesses of some overpower the benefits so much, no that isn't brand new, and also ignores the rest of the players suggestions, would even consider them.

That's always bothered me as well, how X race is always used for Y class(or set of skills) because of it's stats.

In an attempt to at least curb this slightly Ilyrias will be giving players 10 stat points to allocate as they wish at creation(a hard max of 18 on any one stat). Our stats also don't translate 1-1 with IG effects, for example Constitution plays a large part in your health, but agility also plays a part in it while also effecting your ability to dodge incoming attacks. The hope is that doing things this way will at least make it so a few different races will be used, instead of always the same one, for different sets of skills. Of course that opens up min/maxing which is why almost nothing is 100% based off a single stat, making the well rounded stats better in some ways than someone that has one 18. Of course each race has a base set of stats, but you get some customization from there(so playing an orc mage would be possible without a HUGE disadvantage... if we had orcs that is).

While I agree with this statement on some level, I think that if you approach races like KaVir suggested - this will naturally happen to some extent.  If you create elaborate backgrounds, and make more intensive changes than just stats - players won't be able to help it.  The game will progress in a manner where most players will choose X race to be Y class.

I think the thing designers need to do after putting some serious time and effort in to making their races original, like erdos said, is make sure that each class has weaknesses that will force players to make choices.  While each class should be good - each class should also have some serious drawbacks that keeps players from becoming complete god characters.

I didn't mean to imply such a solution, and I agree with Baram's view on this point. I strongly dislike implementations where classes and races tend to get paired up - dwarves are the best fighters, elves the best mages, halflings the best thieves, etc. There are no more viable options than if you had no races at all, but you're created a situation where players can make bad permanent choices before they've even entered the game.

In my opinion, the objective should be to make every race and class combination equally viable. Perhaps the orc fighter is able to dish out the most damage, the dwarven fighter can withstand the most damage, the elven fighter is the fastest and the halfling fighter is the best at dodging - but they should all be equally viable. If you specifically want the dwarves to be weaker mages for roleplaying reasons, then give them something else to compensate (eg perhaps even dwarven mages are pretty reasonable fighters), remove that option entirely (eg dwarves can't play mages) or replace it with a different option (eg dwarves have a special 'earth elementalist' class instead of mage). If it's really necessary for one race to be weaker than the others, then the player should be told up front - or better yet, the character compensated in some other way (such as the I proposed on mudlab) so that the PC is still on-par with other characters.

That is the exact reason that after creation each player is allowed one race change and one "reroll" of stats(not actually a roll, but a reallocation). That way they can change things if they realized that their original choice was a bad one. In RP terms it would be something akin to reincarnation, not the best reason but better than having no justifiable reason for it.

The player could still make a second bad choice though - not to mention the fact that later changes to the game mechanics for balancing purposes might cripple what had previously been a good choice. But that's really a separate issue altogether.

When it comes to combinations of race and class, I don't believe there should be any such thing as an intentionally designed "bad choice". If there's no thematic justification for a particular combination, then block it or give a big warning, but don't let players be punished for trying something unusual. If I select 'dwarf' as a race, and see that 'mage' is one of my class choices, then I think it's only fair to expect that - while I might not be as good at magic as other mages - I'll be on-par with all other characters of the same level as me.

My excuse is easy: The characters are gods. You can change anything you like, except for your class (because your class represents your supernatural inclination and the source of your godlike powers).

I agree with you - and that's basically what I was trying to say before:

Unless you are making a strict RP-style mud (which I know little about since I have played very few), if the game is based around combat to any extent - the power gamers will find the best combo of race/class for any particular situation no matter what. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, let's face it - that's what power gamers do. While we, the designers, might think that every combo is viable (IE: fun to play and equally useful), to power gamers viable does not (necessarily) equal playable.

I wasn't advocating coding your game such that there was only one combo for each race/class. Quite the opposite. All I was meaning was that even if you do make in-depth, intricate changes to races (and classes), that the scenario of X race for Y class might (and probably will) eventually occur. What I was suggesting is that designers need to think about balancing races (and classes) such that they don't create a situation of only one choice, but instead create MORE choices.

But to answer the original poster's question, much like the others, yes I think original races are good and important. But most designers put too much importance on "new" or "original" races without spending enough (or any) time on fleshing them out. Personally, what I was planning on doing is offering 1 or 2 original races at the onset, and then "revealing" new ones later on.


BTW KaVir - nice idea on the background system you proposed. It seems akin to the idea I had of "traits" that I am going to use for my upcoming game - but you put it into words better than I did and you gave me a few more ideas! Thanks!

Well I don't have races, but as far as classes go I most certainly do follow my own advice - I am very careful to make sure that each class is as equally viable as possible, and playable in a wide variety of ways (there are many ways to play each class, and it's common to see several experienced players of the same class who have completely different characters and playing styles).

When you break down powers to their core functionality, you end up with only a small number of possibilities - I would tend to categorise them as follows (although even here there is some crossover):

* Shapechanging (wolf, cloud of bats, etc).
* Summon pet (elementals, a mount, etc).
* Craft item (enchant weapon, create magical armour, etc).
* Bless bonuses (rage, giant strength, etc).
* Curse penalties (fear, fever, etc).
* Invisibility (conceal yourself from others).
* Detect invisibility (see those who are concealed).
* Teleport (rapid travel).
* Tracking (locate other creatures).
* Regeneration (recover damage over time).
* Offensive (fireball, lightning bolt, etc).
* Defensive (forcefield, resist energy, etc).

If you only want one class to have access to any sort of teleportation power, and one to have access to item crafting, etc, then you're only going to up with about three powers per class - and some of these powers are pretty critical.  If your class doesn't have access to any sort of 'detect invisibility' power, then how're you going to fight someone who's invisible?

Yes, every class has the ability to 'teleport' - but they do so through different means, for example:

1) Vampire:

* Can transform into a cloud of bats using the Bat Form power.  This form is highly resilient to physical damage, and has very strong attacks, but it cannot wear equipment and is highly vulnerable to fire.  While in this form, the player can swoop up into the air and 'teleport' to other locations.

* Can purchase the House NightWing talent which, among other things, grants the character a pair of batlike wings.  These wings can be used to 'teleport' to other locations.

* Can place the Chiroptera rune on your chest, using the Blood Runes power.  This grants the character a pair of batlike wings while in human form, and modifies their Wolf Form power so that instead of turning into a wolf, they transforms into a giant bat.  Both give access to the ability to 'teleport' between locations.

* Can purchase the House ShadowSworn talent which unlocks various spells, including the standard teleport spell.

2) Werewolf:

* The Lesser Totem Spirit power allows the character to summon an owl spirit, which functions as a form of 'teleport'.

* Can purchase the Spirit Wolfkin talent which unlocks various spells, including the standard teleport spell.

3) Mage:

* Automatically has access to the basic spells, including the standard teleport spell.

* Can raise the Air Magic power to learn the portal spell, which creates a pair of connected portals which players can travel through in either direction.

4) Demon:

* The Warbeast power at rank 10 unlocks the Demonology power, which allows the character to summon a winged warbeast mount, allowing the rider to 'teleport' to other locations.

* The Wings of the Abyss power provides a powerful wing attack and the ability to 'teleport'.

* The Demon Form power allows the player to shapechange into a customised demonic form which usually has some sort of wings (although they can be traded for something else, such as a shell or a cloud of flies).

* Can purchase the Witch Spawn talent which unlocks various spells, including the standard teleport spell.

Now obviously these aren't all described as teleporting in a puff of smoke - the werewolf sees the owl swoop down and pick him up, the demon's wings beat, the mage makes the appropriate magical gestures, and so on.  Equally, the teleportation is only one aspect of each of the powers - Bat Form is also a combat and scouting form, the teleport spell is only one of many different spells, the owl spirit is one of 4 possible spirits granted by the Lesser Totem Spirit power, Chiroptera is only one of 10 runes (and only gives wings when placed on the chest, doing something completely different if placed on the hands, feet or cheeks), and so on.

But from a pure functionality perspective, yes, all classes have the ability to rapidly travel from X to Y.  It's a necessary ability due to the nature of the game.

The same is the case with crafting - each class has between 2 and 4 crafting powers, yet no two powers are the same.  Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, its own unique spin.  Item customisation plays an important part of the game, making it a necessary ability.

I essentially stuck with well known "races" for my MUD on purpose, to give players something to relate to. However I've reinvented a lot of them away from typical stereotypes, to give them their own uniqueness. That with a few newer races added to it, will hopefully give players something to work with.

I IMMed on a MUD for a time that had about 21 races, several of those being duplicates of one race (drow, wood-elf, etc). The problem I found was that they just took the well-known races and named them something new. Which is another pet-peeve because I think it may also deter players away.

Though the worst scenario is trying to create all new races with names that are impossible to pronounce and not very well described.

I believe making sure races and classes are creative, playable. and diverse is important. Wether or not they are unique or stockbased. If there is no gameplay, then that defeats the porpuse of having classes, and if there is no diveristy than that defeats the porpuse of having races, and if there is no creative, defeats the porpuse of having either.

Just read KaVirs post on mudlab. Nice.

I was just thinking that it'd be nice if instead of being able to make all those choices at character creation they were actually inbedded into the game in a role play way.

Sorry it's late, bear with me.

What I mean is you can chose to be human, elven, half blood, dark elf, dwarf etc. Perhaps even some of the 'talents'. Then by exploring the world you can discover opportunities for your character to take on those 'talents' etc.

I'm a human, male. I choose to be a warrior. I go out into the world and find a band of warriors who agree to take me in for six months and train me. If I accept their offer I go in with basic warrior skills and come out with a few extras, perhaps there is even quests that need to be completed for the warriors before you can complete your training.

Same for a mage.

I'm a character that gets myself into a hoplessly dangerous situation and I'm given then opportunity to beg the gods for assistance. Depending on your recent alignment (good/bad deeds) either a 'good' or 'bad' god appears to you and offers to assist you in return for devotion. You then become permanently aligned to that god. It gives you new skills but also limits you by forcing you to choose to go down one path or another.

There would be a never ending array of possibilities for skills, plots, traits, rp that could come from this sort of character advancement.