I was just thinking it would be helpful if there was some spot on each Mud's "Info" page that tells us whether they are a PAY ONLY mud, or whether they are FREE.

And in addition to that, HOW MUCH it costs to play the mud.

It would be helpful for players that have NO Money to spend to know right away when they look at the mud info page that this mud requires you spending some cash. That way, they don't need to go any further.

And also, I guess, a searchable query to show FREE MUDS versus PAY MUDs.

Hoop

Eh. Please add $ on at least the rankings page.

$ defining a MUD that "accepts donations in trade for stuff" or a MUD that is literally pay to play, that is.

-D

This already exists. Go to the "Features" box. Most, if not all, pay to play MUDs list themselves as such here.

You can do this if you use the site's advanced search feature.

I'd go so far as to suggest an icon on the top level page.  I can't think of a faster turnoff for me than having to pay, or playing on a game where RL money buys IC incentives.  There's too many high-quality free games out there to bother with that, IMHO.

In most cases, "pay for incentives" ends up being de facto pay-to-play, so I agree they should share the "$" symbol.  Ditto for places that only let you play to a certain level, enter certain areas, etc. if you fork over cash.

I have no problem with donations, so long as they are optional and don't influence the game's workings.

NO! I strongly disagree. We do not segregate other games for any other factors such as server speed or location!

Pay-to-play is a MUCH bigger factor than location or server speed, or anything else honestly for that matter, except maybe codebase. I'm all for something going on the ranking list as well as something easily readable in the mud info section.

And honestly, as for the top level page, I'm thinking that it will be a moot point soon anyways as pay muds, spinoffs of pay muds, and sister sites of pay muds will soon dominate the top 10, and probably top 20, and you can just go to pages 2-5 for the non-pay muds...

Sad huh?

Ummm, is this intended to imply all pay-to-play games that make it into the top 20 are doing something inherently unethical to get there? Because the other way to read your post would be to think you're saying pay-to-play muds are inherently better, and thus have more players, and thus are getting more votes.

Both are wrong.

Well since the subtopic of "pay to play" has come up in other threads how about this - Have 2 seperate Top 100 lists. One for those that for whatever reason (other than donations) you have to pay to play and the other for "free" MU*s, etc ?
As for the idea of segregation, bah! TMS has subtly done it since it's creation because if it never did it then there would be no "RP Enforced, Restricted PK. Extended Classes, etc" descriptions, so the post about segregating MUDs and future posts are really moot.
If there were 2 seperate lists, then MUDs like Fuedal Realms can be # 1 in the Free lists and whatever can be #1 in the PtP lists. That way there's MORE room for newer MUDs to get on the lists instead of seeing the TMS version of NASCAR on the top 10 (NASCAR = Same 10 rednecks always win, TMS - Same 10 PtP MUDs are on top). With two lists you can actually double the listings, double the (possible) membership (because to vote you have to be registered right? And if your MUD is here, you'd want your players to be registered so they can vote for your MUD right?). With a larger registration base, word would get out..people would come here first over TMC and who knows? Maybe a mention of TMS on Extended Play (on TechTV) or in The MUD Companion or other gaming rags.
Think about it...it could be beneficial.

Advertisement.

Simple as that, the main reason most p2p muds are bigger is because they can afford full sized advertisements in magazines dealing with RPGs such as Inquest and whatnot. And, together with the initial large playerbase comes the advertisement by players trying to bring other people in as well.

If free (as in free beer) muds could put up huge advertisement without putting a triple mortage on the server, would they have more success as well? It's marketing people. The p2p muds simply have the ability of throwing vast ammounts of money at a problem until it get's solved or solves itself, including the aquisition of fresh and new players. Free muds are locked in a tight battle for every player they can get. How many absolutely NEW free mudders are there every month? And I mean people absolutely new to mudding, not old timers... Sadly few in the free (beer) community, but allot in the p2p community.

Back on track, I have to abstain about commenting about marking p2p muds. One side tells me to agree to differentiate said muds from the rest, but I also realize that this ranking is about MUDs. If it is a MU*/MOO/blah, then there should be no difference between p2p and free. Tough call... Really tough call.

I don't know about the others, but we don't advertise in any magazines and hardly on the web anymore at all.

I hadn't heard of Inquest before, but I'll definitely look into it.

I'm suprised this topic wasn't generated as a poll, given the fact it has been brought up in other boards and lended itself to pages of discussion. Though I'm sure listing $ on front would win by a landslide.

My personal opinion (everyone's got 'em, no?) is that there is as little need to segreate pay sites on the main page by putting a $ as there is to segregate them by their codebase on the main page. The main pages list, the Info button defines.

American society being as spoonfed as it is, break the chain - if a MU* looks neat on the top 20 page DO SOME RESEARCH. Take an extra minute- click the Info button, check out the MUD's web site. Honestly, unless you're just into randomly trying MU*s I find it hard to understand why you'd look for a new home without doing some research. Pulling up a MU*s web site and seeing the button that says "Free Trial Membership" probably takes a shorter time to research than going through a properly offered Character Generation system and discovering once you've logged on.

Perhaps a separate field in the Mud Info area isn't a bad idea, listing a few options a MU* can define itself to choose from (see other threads for people's concepts on that). This way the player loses as much time when researching a MU* as if they checked out the Info and went "Yuck, they didn't describe themselves as a WoT-themed MUD on the front page!" I think Ing pointed out many p4p do this in Features any way, but if it will help soothe the rest of the battered and bruised community... why not?

Like I said, this is just an opinion. *shrugs* Opinions are like... y'know the phrase. Everyone's got 'em and no one wants to hear anyone else's. *wink*

Hamm, you're fired.

*wink*

[Editted, added past this point]

Actually, bringing up the making profit off of free advertisement is a valid point. The frame shop I work at has a "professional artist" working there that often works on her own work for resale later. This does irk me.

While I'm still of my earlier opinion, I would think those promoting a p4p MU* would offer some compensation to a site offering "free" advertisements by perhaps purchasing a banner or something.

God bless commercialism.

Of course, that might not be a good idea because then we'd probably have debates on "Oh, look at the p4p's buying up all the advertisement space... blah blah blah" or people looking at donations as a form of seeking favoritism. Ah, there is no winning, is there?

*finishes up*

Well...for what it's worth, we're working on ads. I'm definitely of a mind that if were sucking up any of Synozeer's bandwidth, I want to contribute.

But yes, I agree, I'm a little worried of the fallout when our banners hit the rotation. :\

For my part, I don't mind indicating that GS3 is a pay to play MUD.

There's some suggestion that Simutronics' products are doing a disservice to the free MUDs by being here. I'd like to point out that since we joined this site, most of our users who have been voting have also taken the opportunity to investigate your games.

This site is about sharing information about the available text-based games for the sake of the community of people interested in such. We're more than willing to let our thousands of users check out your games. Surely you can see the advantages of such an arrangement.

Melissa Meyer
GemStone III

Thanks Melissa. I know that I had never thought of reverse advertising, and I appreciate your bringing it to our attention.

I would like to clarify that I am in no way bashing Simutronics and their family of pay to play muds that are sweeping the polls, but stating (rather jokingly) that ranks 1-20 will be mostly Simutronics games, then 21+ will be everybody else. In fact if I _was_ bashing, then very soon TG_Nek would have my hide for a welcome mat.

*shouts loudly "tarmun guydin rooools!" and then falls into a drunken stupor*

I also think that there is really no need to put up dollar signs next to a MUD that is listed on this site. This is an open site to take a look at what people think is the best MUD in their own eyes. The cost, or lack of cost, has no real effect on what peoples opinion is on the game.

If you are not willing to pay you can very easily just check out the next MUD listed. And its not as if the pay to play MUDs are tricking people into thinking it's a free game. Its very obvious that you have to pay when visiting the game's site or even by reading the information on each individual MUD provided here.

Yes, people are beginning to see that the p2p MUDs do have more people. That has nothing at all do to with the price of the MUD itself. If you don't think the game is worth the money, you probably wouldn't pay for it at all. Looking at it from that perspective, the people who have been paying p2p MUDs that do not think it's worth the cost are given direct links to this site from the voting links located on the pages for the games themselves. That in the end could mean free MUDs end up getting more players from those people who have decided it's not worth it to pay for what brings them enjoyment or because they simply cannot afford it any longer.

~Nik

There's only one thing I take issue with regarding these high-volume games (specifically Simutronics).

There's DragonRealms
there's DragonRealms: The Fallen
and there's DragonRealms Platinum, which is independant of the original.

Then there's GemstoneIII and GemstoneIII Platinum, with The Fallen supposedly on its way eventually.

That's two games taking up to 6 different slots on the top list.

I consider that rather unfair, because Simu knows that perhaps one other company's game can possibly compete with Simu in playerbase.

I think Simu should place DragonRealms as a single offering on TMS, and GemStoneIII as a single offering on TMS, and the "info" button can explain the different versions of each. The same goes for Inferno, which has just recently split into Inferno: Classic and Inferno:Firestorm.

Hearty thanks. :)

If they're different games, they're different games. If you want to make Simutronics compile their different games into a single listing, I'd suggest that all MUDs sharing the same codebase be forced into a single listing too. Sounds a bit ridiculous when put like that doesn't it?

--matt

It's not quite what you think it is at pay 2 play muds. In the one I play most of the staff is still volunteer. What the money does pay for is onsite staff and better hardware and they do pay some gamemasters.

I agree with putting in a dollar sign because it is pertinent information. Some people might not want to pay, but others may want to check it out to see what they are like. From what I have been reading they are likely to have superior experience and combat systems, better systems in general. But, they also have a far larger population and many people might not enjoy that. The scroll can be tremendous in a busy room especially if you are not used to it.

For the most part they don't offer the intimacy that smaller muds do. You make a circle of friends but there is no way you are ever going to know every player or character.

I do think it is more important than things like server speed.

Achaea doesn't mention they are a pay for advancement mud on the info page nor even anywhere I could find on it's web page. I even clicked on play and went into the character manager without any notification that there was anything to buy. I thought I read in the posts some where that it is P2P?

Threshold mentions it in info. Armageddon looks free. The Eternal City doesn't mention payment on the info page or on the first web page you hit. There is no mention until you click create an account at which point they offer a free thirty day trial.

At the very least I would like to see a specific slot on the info page where they must indicate whether or not there is any charge and if so a short description of it. (monthy or for access to wealth, training, experience, etc.)

I don't see any downside to this.

Well, there's no question it's pertinent information, but I think the question is why single out that piece of information? It's no more important than, say, custom vs. codebase. I, for instance, want to always know, right away, allows PK or not. Pay or free is unimportant to me. Others might feel that the most important piece of info is fully custom vs. codebase. There's any number of distinctions you can draw, and any is as valid as the next.

--matt

To me, I'd say listing server speed would make more difference as to where I would want to play.

Do I ever want to play a MUD hosted of some guy's cable modem? No.

And it really does only take one or two clicks to find out whether a mud is p2p or not - if you can't afford 2 clicks, you need to a) get a better modem, or b) start aquiring a more realistic work ethic.

Interestingly I have noticed all the games seem very forthright about those details under info and many in their descriptions.

Excuse me? I play a P2P game. They make it obvious that it is a P2P game right up front by making it clear they offer a 30 day free trial. It was not two clicks to find out if The Eternal City was P2P. I went to info and to the game site and read considerable background information on classes etc. without finding out it was P2P.

I saw no indication at all at Achaea's site that they are P2P so now I am not sure if they are or not. Aha! *Third* visit to the site I finally found the $ information under "credits" which looked like where they would list the creators of the games to me.

"A 'credit' is an Achaean currency, which you may purchase on this page. Once your character has his or her credits, he or she may spend them on whatever is available to spend credits on, such as lessons for skills, artifacts, pets, houses, and so on." Beneath is a listing of various foods from a 20$ salad to offerings for close to 300$."

You mention that there are other significant facts about games and that is very true however that information seems very easy to find. I have to wonder why some P2P games keep this information buried in the web sites to the point where someone could actually create a character without realizing the game is P2P.

As a consumer when I am considering a product I want to know how much it costs up front. I do not want to waste time finding out about the product before knowing whether or not there is a charge for it. There may be people out there for whom it makes no difference if something is free, 10$ a month, or 100$ a month, but I would guess they are few and far between.

From the posts I have read I gather that the entrance to this site of P2P mud offerings is fairly new. It's good for the site as P2P's generally have larger player bases so generate more traffic per game. On the other hand, a large part of the draw to the players is an opportunity to see what else is out there. If there is no way to figure out which games are free and which charge it makes the site a lot less useful to me.

My experience of checking out other muds so far leaves me cold. I am not going to spend hours clicking on muds and searching their web pages to figure out if they are pay or free. It has left me suspicious of all the muds listed because some of the pay muds put the information in an obscure place or only divulge that there is a charge once you have decided to play.

It seems that prior to the entry of P2P muds the default was that the muds are free to play. Some of the P2P muds are being upfront either in the short description on the ratings page or in the features area of info. Others are leaving the information obscure. I just clicked on Shattered Kingdoms and don't see any reference to charging, but I am suspicious anyway because of the P2P sites that are not being upfront about charging. Is that fair to Shattered Kingdoms? Depends on if they too charge.

This is not fair to the free muds or to the players using the site as a reference. Another solution would be for the free muds to all change their descriptions to specify FREE. As free seems to have been the default it doesn't see right to me that the entry of P2P muds on the list should force everyone else to change their descriptions because of a few muds that prefer to leave that information obscure.

How popular do you think this site will remain if players have to wade through all kinds of information on mud sites to discover whether or not they have to pay?

Why would muds that charge be resistant to including that information in their description?

I personally would never play a pay mud, but to each his own.

However, I don't mind having pay mud listed as long as it is blatant that they are pay/donation/what-ever-they-try-to-call-it.

It just is annoying to get in then find out half an hour later that they want you to pay them money.

I support having a simple icon on whether it is pay or not so I can quickly go past it without bothering to look at it.

Just my opinion

Well, you didn't see an indication, because Achaea isn't P2P. We are a commercial game, but playing is free, forever. If you never want to give us a dime, that's entirely your business. We've got major players who have spent thousands of hours playing, have maxxed out their skills, achieved ultra-high levels, and never spent a dime.

So, the reason Achaea doesn't mention it's pay-to-play is because it isn't. We employ that is basically a donations system that gets you rewards for donating, though those rewards give you generally only incremental advantages. Can't purchase xp, only, say, an artifact that lets you get 10% more xp when you do a quest or kill a monster. Can't purchase overwhelming weapons, only weapons that might be 15% better than the statistical average weapon forged by a player.

I'd have no problem with being classified as "commercial" but I would heavily resist being classified as Pay-to-Play, because simply, we aren't. We made the decision years ago that we wanted people to be able to play Achaea for free, because we didn't want to exclude people who can only spend $10 a year, or even nothing at all, becuase though they might not contribute money, they contribute anyway by just participating in the social structures in the game, and thus providing content for other players.

--matt

Thank you for that response Matt. I appreciate your explanation of the distinction between having to pay and having the option of paying as well as the distinction between offering experience verses potencially increased experience through items that offer a bonus during game play.

An indication that a game is commercial would be fine by me. It seems different commercial games each have their own pricing set up which the potential player could then explore if they remain interested.

Just for the record, since I saw the game I'm playing now mentioned previously...

Armageddon doesn't charge anything for playing. It's 100% totally and completely free, with no option to "buy" other skills, equipment, things, characters or whatever.

It does accept donations to support the cost of running the game; server and host fees for instance, but the only "incentive" it offers in exchange for the donation is a thank you and your name somewhere on the website as a contributor.

Also for the record - I have absolutely no problem with pay games, and in fact any company that can make money (legally) off a hobby gets my applause for their success. The only reason I'm playing for free now is that I've finally found a free game I can feel comfortable playing, where game integrity isn't just pretty words with little to back it up.

the p2p muds might have the money, but I haven't seen DG or DR or Gemstone adversited anywhere other then banner ads on their homepages and places like mudconnector and here... which are places that free muds can advertise at as well.

Once again, some interesting points being brought up. I think we can agree on these points :

YES : Whether a mud is P2P or not is just as important as the speed, PK or no PK, and other important aspects of a game that would help you decide to play it or not.

YES: Someone along the way decided what was important enough to see listed on the info screen. So now we can see how many average players there are online, how long the mud has been up for, and whether it is PK or no PK.

YES: I would agree that it would be wrong or sneaky of a game to NOT list it was $$ somewhere on their info / web site page. Somewhere early enough that it wouldn't take you 5 clicks, or 10minutes of investigation to find out if you need to pay or not.

SO :
How do we go about letting TMS know that we would like the P2P issue looked into further? How do I bring this up to the TMS staff to try and decide whether to add a $ or not?

Isn't there some way we can do a Poll, or something like it, asking the common visitor to TMS what they would like to see? Maybe we could add more than one slot - not just the P2P slot, but the slot that shows the average connection speed, or other things that are missing from the Info page (maybe things we haven't thought of here?)

Can the moderator of this group somehow escalate the issue higher, or would it take some form of Divine Intervention to get something like that added to the Info screen?

Whether you like P2P or not, the current poll on TMS shows that it is about 50/50 - 50% of the people have paid to play a mud, and 50% have never paid to play a mud. Wouldn't that mean that at least hundreds (if not thousands) of people WANT to know if its P2P or not?

Hoop

Honestly, i don't see what the big deal is about having a $ sign next to the games' rank on TMS. Is it really important to the game's popularity weither it's pay to play or not?

As to making it clear to people that it is p2p, they can find out by clicking on the info button. Is it really that hard to push *one* button?

I'm not against putting the $ symbols up either.. i just don't think it would make much a difference. So why bother?

I don't know about DG, but Simutronics has marketing deals that no free MUD could hope to compete with. Deals with mainstream magazines like Computer Gaming World, and, I'm told, Rolling Stone. They also have, or had, a relationship with Microsoft's Zone, Rennaisance Entertainment Corp (they run Renn faires), and more, to promote their products. There's nothing wrong with any of that of course, and their marketing people are pretty good at what they do from what I can see.

--matt

Reasoning why $ matters:

Money matters. Far more than server speed or any other of the irrelevant points brought up by the PtP/Achaea twits brought up in this thread so far.

'Nuff said.

-D

Not 'nuff said, Dul.

Why does $ matter more on the rank page than on the info page?

Whether a MU* is p2p or not, and how much it charges would be more informative than descriptive, imho.

Like I said earlier. If you randomly pick MU*s, whats the difference between if you pick a top 20 MU* that is p2p versus if you pick one with a Dark Sun theme - if you're not looking to pay or play in the sand? You still lose time.

If you're looking to research the MU* you're about to try, you'd look to the information page or the MU*s web site, no? With minor research you'd be able to weed out anything you'd find offensive - be it theme, codebase, cost, rp/pk preference, etc.

So what makes p2p so vitally important to be on the Rank Page?

I don't play a p2p MU*, I don't play on anything in the Top 20. Am I just missing something?

Computer Gaming World? Arrh? Rolling Stone?? you gotta be kiddin' me. I think DR was meantioned in some article about Ash.. whatever's Call last month. Not an advertisement. Rolling Stone? The music magazine? huh? I gotta missin' something. Hey if they did have a advertizement there, please, gimme some directions. I gotta see this.

You can play Dragonrealms thru MSN Zone. Which is great. Alot of people discover DR there. I know i did, and a ton of other people i know as well. (*nudge nudge* excellent way to introduce your MUD to people, for those of you looking for effective advertizing).

And about these "rennaisance fairs", they have player gatherings where they have a costume night. Is that what you're talking about? That's not really advertizing since it's something done for players, not prospective players.

The truth is, DR does next to no advertizing. They used to (i think) but then decided to rely completely on word of mouth. Players bug the admins to do more advertizing all the time, so this idea ya got that DR's advertizing is far better than any other MUD is kinda confusing since the exposure they've got on TMS is the biggest advertizing DR has gotten in a very long time.

TG_Nek: Why?

Tell me, do you want to break out a credit card to play a MUD, without prior knowledge?

There's a few reasons behind it. I actually bothered to surf the listings earlier for a MUD to play, but not one of the P2P MUD was properly listed as a P2P MUD on the listings under Info. That is why. 'Pay to Play' is not specified on the listings, and in Achaea's case, nothing is mentioned on the website. I'm sure that Achaea is not the only MUD like this.

-D

>The truth is, DR does next to no advertizing. <

That's not true. I think you're simply comparing Simutronics, a relatively small business, to other businesses like Microsoft and Sony. Of course you'll see their products splashed everwhere. Everyone does what they can. We do plenty of marketing, or we wouldn't get any customers.

Not all the sites mention financial set up either in info or on their main page. I don't think of payment criteria as a "feature". It is more of a condition.

In my own opinion there are at least three designations. Payment required, payment for extras optional, and donations accepted. I think it is an important enough aspect to warrant a separate field that would be a required entry under info.

Seperate listings for pay muds = bad idea. Pay muds should be on the same field as the rest of us.

However, from the point of view of someone who definitely DOSEN'T pay for muds (not because I'm a cheapass; because I am BROKE. I am SEVENTEEN. I HAVE NO JOB. I can NOT pay for a mud), a little "you've gotta pay for this" icon would be very helpful. I don't wanna have to read rambling fan rants saying how good it is then find out I have to pay for it.

So. No segregation. However, seperate listings for payness. All is good. Ninja-baked cookies for all.

~Mnem.

Rolling Stone?!

LOL! Sorry...this whole post just made me laugh.

I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about anymore. ::chuckle::

Dulan -

I've just run a check of my own.  DragonRealms, Gemstone III, Threshold, Hercules and Xena, Dragon's Gate, DR: The Fallen, and Inferno Classic all have "pay-per-play" on their info page.  (DGate's info button isn't linked properly, but the info page is out there.)  Achaea has made the case that they are not strictly pay-per-play, they just offer benefits for money; though a bit distasteful, this is still fair reasoning.  The Eternal City is the only proper pay-per-play in the top 20 that doesn't mention it on its info page.  Modus Operandi doesn't have an info page, but the front page of their website makes it obvious that they're pay-to-play.  That's maybe 1.5 deceptive cases out of 10, so no, the problem is not as dangerously widespread as you seem to think it is.

[Edit: fixed some wording to sound better. I'm just finicky.]

Zulu - Need I point out, that in the context of my post, it implied that my check was prior to Simultronics listings?

Achaea is P2P. If you have to pay to have any chance at really 'playing' a MUD, it's the same as a MUD who is subscription based.

Period.

-D

I would personally like to see the '$' symbol added to the front page listings, to the MUD's it would pertain to.

Otherwise, I think another nifty idea would be to have two sub-listings:

Rankings with Pay-to-Play
Rankings without Pay-to-Play

"Rankings with..." might as well stay the main page.

But if there were a link on the side or at the bottom of the TMS frontpage where people interested could check out rankings of free MUD's, that would be great.

Let's be honest, most free MUD's don't have all these people on at once, voting constantly, yadda, yadda, yadda...

And there are plenty of people who just don't want to pay for MUDding, no matter how good the game is. So, let's have the option of checking out which is the best of the free MUD's...

I mean, isn't it a given that the top 3 (at least) will almost always be Pay-to-Play...

And the MAJORITY (dare I say 95%) of the MUD's out there are free to play anyway...

So, let's have the option of checking out which is the best of the best out of those...

I disagree. I have since checked them out and started a character to see what it is like. I am sticking with Dragonrealms because I can't imagine not sticking with it. But I am starting my daughter out in Achaea. She will not be advancement oriented because she doesn't have that much time to play. Having fun roleplaying doesn't require a top speed of advancement. I have spoken with other players and it is very doable to advance without buying anything.

I would prefer to have her in Dragonrealms because I think it still beats Achaea for ease of entry, but Achaea beats all the others I have checked out with the exception of Dragonrealms.

While some of the other muds I have checked also seem very good there are several reasons I felt that Achaea, even with the voluntary purchase issue, was a better choice. Some seemed too PvP oriented, others were too harsh an environment, many had telnet entry with no suggested client or help in setting up the client. I am willing to put some time into helping her get started but I don't want to have to spend weeks figuring out how to set the client up with basic functions.

Achaea also has a very nice collection of information on the history and the gods which is an interesting read. I won't know for awhile of course, but it seems to have the right balance of ease of use, roleplaying potential, and friendly help available.

The perpetual debates on pay, optional pay, roleplaying verses powergaming lead me inevidably to one thought. Advancement is not a prerequisite to roleplaying.

There is another aspect to the debates. Some people have time and money but most people have either time or money. So, in a game such as Achaea those with time can pour that in and advance faster than those with full time jobs and families. Those who are too busy can boost their opportunity for advancement through using some of that hard earned cash. Those with both time and money will advance the fastest, but that is just the way of the world. Achaea is not the same as a pay to play mud because you don't HAVE to pay.

I haven't been to all the free muds out there but from what I can see those muds that charge or offer in game advantages to those who pay do seem to have a more professional website with systems that allow for easier entry of inexperienced mudders.

The free muds are fussier about whom they accept, some requiring histories, others not offering much support so really are set up for those who either have a history of mudding or know someone who already plays that can guide them through setting up their client.

I can understand why some of the traditional mudders find payment for benefits to be so outrageous. Based on traditional mudding principles the idea of purchasing in game status through real life money is abhorant. But these games are not traditional. They are able to offer services that are not provided by the free muds.

My bet is the reason they get larger faster isn't so much advertising as it is ease of entry. You can go to Dragonrealms sign up and be playing literally within minutes. Dragonrealms has both it's own client, Wizard, which I have used for years, and a newer web based entry which doesn't require download. In both cases there is no need to "set up" the client that is already done for us. Achaea isn't quite as generous but the Java entry is very comfortable to use. The only think lacking that I would have appreciated having right away was a logging mechanism.

Contrast that to entering a new game in telnet, and the difference is enormous for someone who doesn't want to fiddle with obtaining and learning how to use a generic client.

So, a hint to the free muds, front page news on your website (if you want new players that have never played a mud) provide a link to a free client and all basic set up information for whatever would be the most useful features to have active when beginning to play.

From the perspective of a player checking out muds, it makes a difference if payment is required, verses payment optional, verses donations accepted. Not because one type is inherently better than the other, but because different players will find different aspects more or less important than others.

While having the pay muds may well result in free muds being pushed down the list it will also increase traffic tremendously and increase the number of people visiting the free muds to check them out. I already know of some DR players who have joined a free mud (and singing it's praises for RP), and some Achaea players who are checking out DR, and I, a diehard fan of DR am introducing my daughter to Achaea instead of Dragonrealms.

Everyone stands to gain. There is no need to denigrate any game or style in order to promote the idea that payment details should be included on the info page.

Okay, I have just one simple point to ponder: We don't have to alter the listings, but what harm would putting a dollar sign next to the name of the listing hurt? The info page states "pay to play" so why not go ahead and indicate that status at a glance? I don't see where it will make much difference, personally.

As for a pre-configured client, here's an idea for us freebie muds: Take Gmud32, configure the world.mud file for our mud, rezip it and distribute. I have found this allows the client to already have all my mud's information within the connect window. Just click connect, then select "Lands of Time" and the newbie mudder is on his/her way.

Seraphina.....

Whatever you are, you either have not played Achaea, or you are talking about another MUD entirely.

Threads of many old and current players have popped up on TMC many times before, saying the exact opposite of what you claim. Furthermore, my playing experiences on Achaea are precisely opposite of what you claim - even the players on Achaea that I talked to with problems that I was having about advancement and PvP (PK) interaction had the same issues as I.

Regardless of your opinion, that entire post was an advertisement for Achaea. None was valid in this point. Nor is any of it true in any shape or form about Achaea, for that matter, no matter what may be claimed.

As well, you have just used many tactics that are classical of Mihaly. Irrelevant information, out of context information, and generally WRONG information.

Please, do some real research into a MUD before you make factual statements about it. And if you are merely another Achaea advertiser, please post real facts. Furthermore, please post your advertisements on the correct boards.

-D

Personally I'd like to see a "cost" category in each mud profile, which contains something like one of the following:

Cost: This mud requires regular payments.

Cost: This mud is free, but to access the full game you must pay.

Cost: This mud is free, but money can get you what time and effort cannot.

Cost: This mud is free, but you may also spend money to help advancement.

Cost: This mud is completely free.