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Molly · 10-11-2002, 03:35 PM

Well, you see, Seraphina, my mud isn't Roleplay enforced, even though some of our players roleplay by their own choice, so IC or OOC matters don't really count much here. My mud is mainly what is known as a hack'n'slash mud, although we try to promote the good and 'smart' players rather than the 'power-players'.

With the exception of some strictly 100% RP muds, where you roleplay out even a fight by using emotes, most muds have some sort of system for advancing, and most players have as their main goal to improve their char and make it as powerful as possible. This is done by gaining different skills, but usually also by getting armour and weapons that improve your stats. A fully trained, fully equipped top level player is usually hundreds of times more powerful than the naked and inexperienced newbie.

In most muds you advance by killing stuff, either other players, or 'monsters', or both. For this you gain exp points and/or levels, which give you more power. Some muds have disposed of the exp and levels and work solely with skills, others have disposed of the equipment with additional stats, but the time element is mostly an important factor in any case, because the skills take time to learn. Most muds by definition are somewhat repetitive.

So in most muds the main ways of getting powerful are:
- by spending a lot of time, repeatedly killing monsters
- or by spending a lot of time repeatedly practizing your skills (and in the extreme cases players use scripts or 'bots' to do both these things, while being AFK themselves, which is why many muds expressively forbid the use of 'bots' ).

In some muds (like mine) you can also advance by using different trades (farming, gardening, lumberjacking, mining, forging etc.) or by doing Quests (= solving more or less difficult problems/puzzles. Simply put, you get rewarded for RESCUING the prisoner in the dungeon, instead of killing him).

There are of course ways of speeding the advancing process up, for instance:

1. by gradually getting the best possible equipment and/or weapon for your level, to allow you to attack stronger mobs/players thus making the killing easier and quicker (the basic, traditional way)
2. by simply being a 'good player' (meaning that you know your way around the mud, where the best equipment can be found, where your limits are at each stage to avoid unnecessary dying, what facilities to use (for instance mounts, vehicles, pets), which mobs to attack and your chances of succeeding in each case, what things to look for when looking for hidden exits or other secrets in a zone etc.)
3. by cooperating with other players and forming groups for each task (requires 'social' certain skills, at least up to a point)
4. by BUYING the good stuff for mud money/currency (still requires time spent on getting together the mud money)
5. by getting some other, more powerful player to 'tank' for you or give you some good stuff for free (generally known as power-levelling) - (this still needs some social or roleplaying skills, because most experienced players detest newbies that demand to be powerlevelled or given equip)
6. by BUYING the good stuff for RL money from another player (cheesy, but it occurs)
7. by BUYING the good stuff for RL money from the Mud owner (the subject of this particular discussion)
8. by cheating (for instance by abusing bugs or getting some unscrupolous imm friend of yours to load you some excessively good stuff, or even create it specially for you)

Of these 8 methods, the first three in my opinion are good and recommendable, number 4 is a bit dubious, but still acceptable, after that they get increasingly cheesy.

I think it should be pretty obvious to most, that being able to buy the 'extra' stuff for RL life money gives you a vast - and in my opinion unfair - advantage over the players that haven't the same economical means, or just regard the game in the traditional way, as a skill game, where your skills as a player is what matters, not the size of your wallet. Some P2P muds even take this to the extreme. There are muds where you cannot even learn certain skills, cannot use simple commands like 'rest' or 'sleep' to regain movement, mana and hp points faster, or cannot join certain guilds with access to particularly good equipment, without paying real money to the mud owner.

Sure, you can argue, like KaVir does, that it's 'unfair' that the college student or unemployed person 'without a real life' can spend a lot more time into the mud than the person with a full time job, improving his char in different ways, and getting powerful. But that is the nature of a mud as well as most on-line games, the time spent does - and SHOULD - count, and if you don't like that fact, perhaps you simply should choose another pastime.

I just don't think that buying the advantages for RL money is a good solution, and nothing anybody says will convince me otherwise. It seems from the way this discussion has gone, that I won't be able to convince KaVir otherwise either, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's obvious that several players think like him (regrettably many of these are bad/lazy players, but what the hell, 1000 bluebottle flies cannot be wrong...). It's also obvious that he has Mihaily in his corner, which is kinda amusing, in a way...

I've had my say in this, so I'll end the discussion here from my side, since I think little can be gained by repeating the same arguments or offering more examples.

Finally, to return to our Builders, we do reward them for the time spent on building, and I believe most muds do the same, in one way or another. But what we use to reward them is 'mud currency', not fancy equipment or extra skills or commands. The currency can be used to buy some things, mainly roleplay related, but also things like crash-proof houses, if you get enough of it together. But the Builder, even with his currency, still has to put some time and effort into the game to advance his char, find the good equipment and become powerful. (Mainly this isn't a big problem, because most players make a choice; if they are really into building they generally dump their mortal char, because there simply isn't time enough to do both. Building is a very time-consuming job).

10-11-2002, 03:35 PM	#94
Molly Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Sweden Home MUD: 4 Dimensions Posts: 574	Well, you see, Seraphina, my mud isn't Roleplay enforced, even though some of our players roleplay by their own choice, so IC or OOC matters don't really count much here. My mud is mainly what is known as a hack'n'slash mud, although we try to promote the good and 'smart' players rather than the 'power-players'. With the exception of some strictly 100% RP muds, where you roleplay out even a fight by using emotes, most muds have some sort of system for advancing, and most players have as their main goal to improve their char and make it as powerful as possible. This is done by gaining different skills, but usually also by getting armour and weapons that improve your stats. A fully trained, fully equipped top level player is usually hundreds of times more powerful than the naked and inexperienced newbie. In most muds you advance by killing stuff, either other players, or 'monsters', or both. For this you gain exp points and/or levels, which give you more power. Some muds have disposed of the exp and levels and work solely with skills, others have disposed of the equipment with additional stats, but the time element is mostly an important factor in any case, because the skills take time to learn. Most muds by definition are somewhat repetitive. So in most muds the main ways of getting powerful are: - by spending a lot of time, repeatedly killing monsters - or by spending a lot of time repeatedly practizing your skills (and in the extreme cases players use scripts or 'bots' to do both these things, while being AFK themselves, which is why many muds expressively forbid the use of 'bots' ). In some muds (like mine) you can also advance by using different trades (farming, gardening, lumberjacking, mining, forging etc.) or by doing Quests (= solving more or less difficult problems/puzzles. Simply put, you get rewarded for RESCUING the prisoner in the dungeon, instead of killing him). There are of course ways of speeding the advancing process up, for instance: 1. by gradually getting the best possible equipment and/or weapon for your level, to allow you to attack stronger mobs/players thus making the killing easier and quicker (the basic, traditional way) 2. by simply being a 'good player' (meaning that you know your way around the mud, where the best equipment can be found, where your limits are at each stage to avoid unnecessary dying, what facilities to use (for instance mounts, vehicles, pets), which mobs to attack and your chances of succeeding in each case, what things to look for when looking for hidden exits or other secrets in a zone etc.) 3. by cooperating with other players and forming groups for each task (requires 'social' certain skills, at least up to a point) 4. by BUYING the good stuff for mud money/currency (still requires time spent on getting together the mud money) 5. by getting some other, more powerful player to 'tank' for you or give you some good stuff for free (generally known as power-levelling) - (this still needs some social or roleplaying skills, because most experienced players detest newbies that demand to be powerlevelled or given equip) 6. by BUYING the good stuff for RL money from another player (cheesy, but it occurs) 7. by BUYING the good stuff for RL money from the Mud owner (the subject of this particular discussion) 8. by cheating (for instance by abusing bugs or getting some unscrupolous imm friend of yours to load you some excessively good stuff, or even create it specially for you) Of these 8 methods, the first three in my opinion are good and recommendable, number 4 is a bit dubious, but still acceptable, after that they get increasingly cheesy. I think it should be pretty obvious to most, that being able to buy the 'extra' stuff for RL life money gives you a vast - and in my opinion unfair - advantage over the players that haven't the same economical means, or just regard the game in the traditional way, as a skill game, where your skills as a player is what matters, not the size of your wallet. Some P2P muds even take this to the extreme. There are muds where you cannot even learn certain skills, cannot use simple commands like 'rest' or 'sleep' to regain movement, mana and hp points faster, or cannot join certain guilds with access to particularly good equipment, without paying real money to the mud owner. Sure, you can argue, like KaVir does, that it's 'unfair' that the college student or unemployed person 'without a real life' can spend a lot more time into the mud than the person with a full time job, improving his char in different ways, and getting powerful. But that is the nature of a mud as well as most on-line games, the time spent does - and SHOULD - count, and if you don't like that fact, perhaps you simply should choose another pastime. I just don't think that buying the advantages for RL money is a good solution, and nothing anybody says will convince me otherwise. It seems from the way this discussion has gone, that I won't be able to convince KaVir otherwise either, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's obvious that several players think like him (regrettably many of these are bad/lazy players, but what the hell, 1000 bluebottle flies cannot be wrong...). It's also obvious that he has Mihaily in his corner, which is kinda amusing, in a way... I've had my say in this, so I'll end the discussion here from my side, since I think little can be gained by repeating the same arguments or offering more examples. Finally, to return to our Builders, we do reward them for the time spent on building, and I believe most muds do the same, in one way or another. But what we use to reward them is 'mud currency', not fancy equipment or extra skills or commands. The currency can be used to buy some things, mainly roleplay related, but also things like crash-proof houses, if you get enough of it together. But the Builder, even with his currency, still has to put some time and effort into the game to advance his char, find the good equipment and become powerful. (Mainly this isn't a big problem, because most players make a choice; if they are really into building they generally dump their mortal char, because there simply isn't time enough to do both. Building is a very time-consuming job).