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KaVir · 09-03-2007, 05:08 AM

This is what you said previously:

"I think it's easy to see why many people want the four option system. Most of them do fall into one category, but that category also has a TON of wiggle room and is impossible to enforce. Until you can get rid of the word "rewarded", we'll just keep having the "free" discussion every few months, and people will keep flaming each other over it every few months."

Emphasis mine. You explicitly objected to a specific word, so it was changed in an attempt to appease you. Please have the decency of not shifting the goal posts every time your concerns are addressed - this thread is already long enough.

Do they get something in-game? Yes.

[ ] Payment and/or donations required to play.
[X] Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game.
[ ] Neither payment nor donations accepted.

TEXT BOX: Donators get a purely cosmetic badge. No other in-game results.

None that I can think of, and none that have been mentioned here. Oh, there are games where the owners wouldn't be happy about their classification...but none that you can't easily categorise at a glance.

Are you required to pay? Yes. Therefore:

[X] Payment and/or donations required to play.
[X] Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game.
[ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game.
[ ] Neither payment nor donations accepted.

TEXT BOX: One-off $50 registration fee. Can also purchase perks.

Whether the second box is also clicked would depend on whether Lasher decided to use check boxes or radio buttons.

From the perspective of a player, the fact still remains that they are required to pay. The specifics of that payment could vary dramatically - what if I had a mud that cost $5/year to play? Someone could play that for 10 years for the cost of the old Threshold registration fee, which would likely end up being cheaper for most players. What about the Skotos games that allow you to play a whole range of different games with a single monthly subscription? What about Guild Wars, which has no subscription costs but still requires you to make the initial purchase (the equivilent of a registration fee) and also allows you to purchase expansion packs?

If you start breaking the options down into specific types of payment, they become ambigious - just the same as if you were to try and break the "results in-game" down into specific types of perk.

Fortunately there are only 31 pay-to-play muds on TMS, and people willing to pay are likely to read over each entry first (which means they could view the text boxes). Furthermore, Threshold doesn't even have the registration fee any more, so it wouldn't be classified as payment-required anyway.

It's not about players being "stupid", it's about making the search options easier for them to use. The two players who have posted so far in this thread have both expressed a preference for the four-choice system.

To put it another way:

Threshold has said that people are told about his payment model when they first log on, therefore it's not a secret. That means players who don't like his payment model will simply log off shortly after connecting - all you've achieved is to waste a few minutes of that player's time.

However I've been told by some commercial mud owners that certain players actively prefer pay-for-perks, because they have money but very little time. However there's currently no way for such players to find that type of mud.

Based on the above, I can't see how the four-option system wouldn't be an advantage for your mud. The players who remove "results in-game" from their search options are the same players who would quit anyway, whilst those who want a pay-for-perks system are now more likely to find your game.

The muds that lose out are the ones that hide their payment models (or at least the extent of the required payments) until the player is hooked.

I've already told you, at least twice, that there are currently 31 muds listed on Top Mud Sites that already use the "pay-to-play" option, which was incorporated into the four-choice system as box A.

There is no room for interpretation - that's the beauty of the four-choice system.

Did you actually ask them, or are you just guessing?

Once again this has been explained to you repeatedly: There are a number of people who would favour more options, but it's very difficult to do so unambigiously. Your proposal, whether made in good faith or not, has more holes than a Swiss cheese. The four-choice proposal, while still rather over-generalised, is extremely unambigious - nobody has yet come up with a payment model that can't be clearly categorised at a single glance.

09-03-2007, 05:08 AM	#341
KaVir Legend Join Date: Apr 2002 Name: Richard Home MUD: God Wars II Posts: 2,052	Re: What does "Free" Mean? This is what you said previously: "I think it's easy to see why many people want the four option system. Most of them do fall into one category, but that category also has a TON of wiggle room and is impossible to enforce. Until you can get rid of the word "rewarded", we'll just keep having the "free" discussion every few months, and people will keep flaming each other over it every few months." Emphasis mine. You explicitly objected to a specific word, so it was changed in an attempt to appease you. Please have the decency of not shifting the goal posts every time your concerns are addressed - this thread is already long enough. Do they get something in-game? Yes. [ ] Payment and/or donations required to play. [X] Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game. [ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game. [ ] Neither payment nor donations accepted. TEXT BOX: Donators get a purely cosmetic badge. No other in-game results. None that I can think of, and none that have been mentioned here. Oh, there are games where the owners wouldn't be happy about their classification...but none that you can't easily categorise at a glance. Are you required to pay? Yes. Therefore: [X] Payment and/or donations required to play. [X] Payment and/or donations accepted, has results in-game. [ ] Payment and/or donations accepted, no results in-game. [ ] Neither payment nor donations accepted. TEXT BOX: One-off $50 registration fee. Can also purchase perks. Whether the second box is also clicked would depend on whether Lasher decided to use check boxes or radio buttons. From the perspective of a player, the fact still remains that they are required to pay. The specifics of that payment could vary dramatically - what if I had a mud that cost $5/year to play? Someone could play that for 10 years for the cost of the old Threshold registration fee, which would likely end up being cheaper for most players. What about the Skotos games that allow you to play a whole range of different games with a single monthly subscription? What about Guild Wars, which has no subscription costs but still requires you to make the initial purchase (the equivilent of a registration fee) and also allows you to purchase expansion packs? If you start breaking the options down into specific types of payment, they become ambigious - just the same as if you were to try and break the "results in-game" down into specific types of perk. Fortunately there are only 31 pay-to-play muds on TMS, and people willing to pay are likely to read over each entry first (which means they could view the text boxes). Furthermore, Threshold doesn't even have the registration fee any more, so it wouldn't be classified as payment-required anyway. It's not about players being "stupid", it's about making the search options easier for them to use. The two players who have posted so far in this thread have both expressed a preference for the four-choice system. To put it another way: Threshold has said that people are told about his payment model when they first log on, therefore it's not a secret. That means players who don't like his payment model will simply log off shortly after connecting - all you've achieved is to waste a few minutes of that player's time. However I've been told by some commercial mud owners that certain players actively prefer pay-for-perks, because they have money but very little time. However there's currently no way for such players to find that type of mud. Based on the above, I can't see how the four-option system wouldn't be an advantage for your mud. The players who remove "results in-game" from their search options are the same players who would quit anyway, whilst those who want a pay-for-perks system are now more likely to find your game. The muds that lose out are the ones that hide their payment models (or at least the extent of the required payments) until the player is hooked. I've already told you, at least twice, that there are currently 31 muds listed on Top Mud Sites that already use the "pay-to-play" option, which was incorporated into the four-choice system as box A. There is no room for interpretation - that's the beauty of the four-choice system. Did you actually ask them, or are you just guessing? Once again this has been explained to you repeatedly: There are a number of people who would favour more options, but it's very difficult to do so unambigiously. Your proposal, whether made in good faith or not, has more holes than a Swiss cheese. The four-choice proposal, while still rather over-generalised, is extremely unambigious - nobody has yet come up with a payment model that can't be clearly categorised at a single glance.