[Brawndel]

Hi there. I am new to the world of topmudsites, and could use some assistance
First of all, I am blind, and use software called a screenreader which reads what is
on the screen to me verbally. I have been mudding for 10+ years, and am now looking into creating my own little piece of computer generated paradice.
My question is this. I use windows, and I have heard from admins/gods on a couple different muds which I have played that it is basically impossible to
run a mud on a windows machine. It is rather difficult to get the accessibility software for Linux, and I would like to avoid Linux as much as possible.
Is there any possible way to run a mud in windows? Or does it even matter if I am using a commercial server? Are there any codes which might work ok on
windows?
I would appreciate any comments on my situation

Thanks a lot
Brawny

[Caladan]

Hey,

There are a couple of codebases that you can run on windows, (A Smaug I recall from somewhere, and I believe a ROM..) But it is certainly not the most efficient way of doing things. You would be severely limited in improving and expanding the code, and it would not be nearly as stable.

However. That would only be running the server from a windows machine, and I doubt you plan to run your own server, at least to start. Using a commercial server (Most of which run some form of Linux/Unix) with a shell account you can telnet into from a windows machine, is a very common and viable way to run a MUD yourself. I have worked as a developer on a few MUD's and never needed to install Linux on my own personal machine.

I hope this helps, if it doesn't feel free to ask for clarification on any points. More than happy to help.

[Kylotan]

I don't see why there would be any problems with extending the code, or even stability these days. Windows XP should handle a mud just fine.

[Hajamin]

Even XP is extremely unstable compared to Linux, my Linux machine has been running for months, where XP has to restart every week or so. Cgwin is a linux emulator for windows, but again it won't be as stable.

As was mentioned most people don't run their own server. Putty is a program that will allow you to connect into a linux server from windows using SSH, your reader should be able to read that(but you will still need to learn the basic linux commands).

I've seen a couple Java based mud sources out there, which in theory should run on windows just as well as linux... CoffeeMud is one, I think. If you do a little searching you should be able to find a couple of them.

[Protoss]

I believe Dgd is another codebase you can use to program from Windows.

[Brawndel]

Kay, That helps some. I would most likely be using a commercial server, and if I could telnet to it... nod nod, sounds easy enough. Is it possible to access the code and everything by telnetting to the server? And also, I am extremely lacking in linux/unix knollege... what exactly is a shell account?
I have looked into coffeemud, and I like it... but the databasing bothers me... it slows the mud down way to much. *shrug* I would most likely be using Circle, as most of the muds which I have played have ran under circle. Also, could anyone suggest a good commercial server to use? And, would you suggest loading the basic stalk version of circlemud onto the server to begin work on it?
Thanks for your help everyone, I really do appreciate it!!

Brawny

[Brawndel]

Ahhh... and I forgot to mention that on a slightly different note, I am needing some help learning C. I have learned a bit over the years, but no where near enough to dive into coding without a hard core coder by my side. I could also use any suggestions as to a good tutorial on programming in C.
Thanks a lot!! Brawny

[Hephos]

[shadowfyr]

There is a version of the old MUDOS for Windows. At least NT or better anyway, it commits suicide on 9x. lol There is some stupid issue with some clown complaining about GPL and not providing the source with it or some bull, so I don't know it that has been resolved yet, but you can/could find it here:



MUDOS is a true lpmud. Most of the code bases for Windows are far more limited database driven jobs that while easier to use sometimes, tend to also limit options for design, sort of like picking VB over C++.

[zombiedepot]

is open source and made in Java. It's been a close kept secret of mine as I've developed my MUD for my buddies, but it's a very good codebase. Runs very well on Windows, and it's got an integrated web based builder with tons of documentation.

The guy who develops it Bo Zimmerman has made it open source and stepped back to maintain it. I recommend it to everyone now, it's getting quite the community too. This way, you won't need Linux.

[Mabus]

There are a few folks. CoffeeMud is a wonderful piece of MUD programming. I find it easy to modify, and even have one version where I added timed-combat.

Runs great there.

If you are going to have it hosted on a server be aware that it IS Java-based. Takes a boatload of memory, and I have had a host complain about the number of threads it generates.

Runs fastest with an external DB as well, although it comes with a stock internal DB. MYSQL can usually be found on most host servers. Pretty easy to set up.

All in all, I like it. Though I know a lot of C programmers (which I do a bit of) might find it odd to use a Java MUD codebase.

[Heathen]

I was reading through these forums and saw your post and realized you logged into my MUD of choice this morning Did you find a good solution for you? I'm surprised no one mentioned OS X as a viable option - great accessibility software and has all the development tools of a Unix platform.

[plamzi]

What exactly about Linux does the OP want to avoid? If it's just a matter of being able to access the mud files locally under Windows, then running a CircleMUD under cygwin is pretty straightforward, although it will require basic Linux skills for running scripts and compiling.

OSX is another option but of course that requires either an Apple machine or a hackintosh, and the OS can be unwelcoming to someone who has only used Windows. And, you'd still have to go into the terminal/shell for some things. At the end of the day, OSX + a C codebase will not feel much different than Windows + a C codebase under cygwin.

Finally, any remote or local server can be set up fairly easily so that the code of the mud is made accessible, e. g. via FTP. That means you can always code 'locally' with whatever editor you prefer.

And really finally, don't fear Linux.

[Heathen]

Per the OP he hasn't had much luck with accessibility software under Linux. I have a blind friend who says the best accessibility software he's ever used is on OS X, so that's why I recommended it. Doing similar things under windows probably isn't very hard either though - although I prefer OS X to running Cygwin on Windows any day.

[Brawndel]

Like... WOW!!
What was this like five years ago?
And yet I still haven't really come up with a solution.
I had completely forgotten about this post though it is still viable as something I'd like to know about.
I've been trying and retrying different methods of mud creation since I graduated highschool in 2001, and everything I've tried has fallen through because of accessibility or because I just haven't had the know-how.
I know all about os X, and though that might be an option down the road a bit, I'm not in the best position to pay for a new machine.
Is it still true that most of the code bases that are run under windows don't perform as well as similar code bases under lynix?
Coding the mud with windows and then getting a shell account to a host surver is possible, but what if I want to test my code before I upload it... or do you generally do the coding entirely through the shell?
I haven't played with cigwin in a few years, but last time I tried my screen reader had major issues with it. Something like Coffeemud is still possible... although I've heard from several sorces that it's harder to get something built in java onto a host surver.

It would be optimal if I could do my coding in notepad, then upload the file to a surver. Is that possible or does anything written in windows clash with a unix type environment?

Anyway, as you can see I still have similar questions. Though at least now I know quite a bit more about coding.

Thanks a lot Heathen for bringing this up again, I totally forgot that this was even here. And yes I am the same guy that logged on to Northern Crossroads this morning... hope to see you there.

Carry on

Brawny

[Pymeus]

Windows itself is usually less stable than Linux. You wouldn't want to host the main game on Windows, but it should be more than stable enough for coding and testing purposes. Note that most of these mud codebases will still require a Linux-like environment or else code modifications to your mud to make it work under whatever compiler you settle on.

That's possible and even common, but again requires that your machine have a development environment that can handle your codebase.

That's unfortunate. Most of the important tools in a unix environment are text-based, which I would have thought the screen reader would like. Oh well.

Cygwin isn't the only way to get a Linux-like environment in Windows, but it does seem to be the most popular one by far and it's the only one I've personally used. If Cygwin doesn't work for you, maybe "AndLinux" will. It was somewhat popular a few years ago but I've lost track of it since I don't use Windows much anymore. It may not be well-suited for you though; as I recall it was some sort of integrated desktop wherein Linux was just a program running inside Windows. I wouldn't expect it to be screen-reader friendly, but you never know.

Windows and unix use different end-of-line markers. You can usually move a Windows text file into unix with only minor issues that may not even be detectable in a screen reader. But Windows is not so kind with unix text files and will often cram the entire file into one line. However with a screen reader that may again not be particularly important.

[Markov_AU]

ASCII mode FTP. Will send character for character and convert text to the proper formant for the OS

[plamzi]

You can run a test instance of your mud server on a different port on the server. Upload your code changes, compile and test on that instance before pushing the binary file to another directory where your production server resides.

Whether you decide to go local with cygwin or not, for logging into a shell you'd need a telnet client that Windows Narrator can read from. I tried putty (my favorite) and it didn't seem to work, but I'm pretty sure the simple telnet client built into Windows will work. In recent versions of Windows, you have to go under Programs & Features to install telnet - it's not installed by default.

As for editing local text files, I recommend + for quick file uploads to server. If you use winscp, issues with text file formatting arising from transfers between Windows and Linux should not come up. Notepad + winscp should work just as well.

[DarkRider]

This thread is depressing for Windows users.

I started a while back looking for information on running a Mud from Windows. I saw this thread and had to grab my prozac quick LOL. Since then I have been discussing this subject with other people on another forum and learned a lot about running a mud from windows.

Many Muds have binaries now that let you run the mud under Windows and most of the bugs of yesteryear have been worked out. Dead Souls is an example of such a Mud. There are also binaries in the form of LambdaCore's gaming versions like HellCore, RPGCore and HeroCore but these may not be as updated as say Dead Souls and you may have some problems. I think HellCore is still being maintained.

Wheel Mud is a Mud made for windows that won't have any of the the problems you might find porting a Unix mud to Windows.

CoffeeMud is based on java which will run under Windows as well as any other system that Java runs on.

No need to use Cygwin anymore. Cygwin can give problems and some muds don't recommend using it. Those Muds provide binaries instead or tell you to compile the Mud under your favorite version of Linux running in a virtual machine (VirtualBox or VMWare) through Windows. It's possible to even run the Mud through that virtual machine so you can host it.

And yes, you CAN host a Mud through Windows XP or 7 using it as a home server and it will be stable - at least for the muds that are still maintained and updated with binaries. Don't count on an old binary version to be as stable. Most binaries of Unix based Muds will have at least a few limitations. There are difference in the problems you might run into depending on the Mud core you use, so check around, ask in forums to see if the Mud you want to run has any limitations running from Windows that you can't live with. No need to think about a Host unless you have a lot of traffic and then, there are some good free hosts out there.

The point of this post is to give hope to the Windows users who want to run a Mud. To let them know there are lots of good options they can experiment with, without having to use a dedicated Linux machine or host on a Linux server - or have to fight with a mud that just won't work on Windows. We need to encourage more Windows users to run and work on Muds to help this community to grow and stay active.

[camlorn]

Right, time to clear up misconceptions, since someone bothered to necro this.

Windows filesystem is known to be slower than linux filesystem. Dead souls runs on windows with a max of 64 players and Cratylus has admitted over dchat that he can't update the binary anymore--he had to jump through hoops with mingw to get it to compile because of some problem or other with cygwin licenses.

People not recommending cygwin astonishes me, kind of. I think that it's more because it takes quite a lot of know-how to use it properly and most people who try to run these things are scared away by the first compiler error--"missing dll?" what's a dll? is probably the most common first question, if I had to guess. I'm sure there's some obscure reasons why cygwin is bad, but I have yet to find them.

In regards to OP. Firstly, OP is almost certainly not using narrator--if I had to guess it's jaws, nvda, or window-eyes. Probably jaws. On that note.

Cygwin will work reasonably well with jaws, and I just tried it in nvda, which is free. I don't know about window-eyes, but I know several people who have gotten roguelikes to work, which is way more than what ssh requires (and, to be honest, I'm impressed with that). I, personally, have had success with ssh in cygwin and a winscp account--there's some oddities, but as long as you don't try remote editing, you're generally fine.

I'm going to throw this out there, as well. There's a text editor called edsharp that works with all the popular screen readers--the guy who wrote it is blind and he wrote it for the blind. That said, it's got quite a few things uncommon in windows editors, even the programming ones, and quite a few helpful esoteric features, so you sighted people might want to check it out if you can get past the awful interface--it's great for the blind, but I suspect it looks really horrid--the menus are extremely, extremely long because the intent is for them to serve as a sort of hotkey lookup, kind of (you find it once, remember the hotkey, and just use that).


Now, here's one no one on here has considered--linux. Gnome comes with a screen reader that's actually halfway decent and of corse free. It's called orca. There's instructions floating around on how to get a ubuntu live cd to boot into orca (and how to get a ubuntu live cd set up in the first place), and it's really not that hard. You have to actually install it (either real computer or virtual machine--beware, virtual machines can give audio troubles) to save your changes, but the live cd should let you know whether or not you could stand to use it. It's good enough that you can get on the internet and code, but there is a bit of a learning curve.

But, I suspect that the OP has moved on, judging by one of his recent posts, from trying to make his own mud.