[plamzi]

Originally Posted by Ide Maybe you sometimes use the mudportal client (on a phone, on some other computer), and also use a desktop client. When you're on the DT client you still want to connect with the MP community. Intermud chat basically.

Hmm, well it's not that much work to let people telnet into the chat server, but how is that different from connecting to any one of dozens of games that have Intermud chat?

Also, the mudportal client is a desktop client as well, and features like this one are intended to entice people to congregate on the site.

I'll definitely add a page where people can just chat, from phone or desktop browser.

[Ide]

That's a fair point, but it seems like MP connects an order of magnitude more muds than any intermud network I know of.

OK, I'll give MP a shot as my sole client and see how it goes...I always thought I'd give up mushclient when they pried it from my cold, dead fingers

[plamzi]

I'd like to give this thread a quick bump.

I feel that any dev who cares about improving the user experience should take a serious look at the tools that mudportal.com offers. It's getting to be a very mature and solid, absolutely free, offering and I think more people (other than myself) should be doing more great things with it! The API documentation is growing, and the public GitHub repo is kept relatively up to date.

If you are considering customizing a web client but have specific concerns or reservations, don't hesitate to share them either here or on the TMP forums.

If you are a player, next time you're stuck on a computer where you don't have your favorite MUD client installed, just try your home mud through the mudportal app--I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[ww_crimson]

Plamzi,

I'm planning on hopefully messing with mudportal some time in the next few weeks, but was wondering if you had any plans to add full MXP support at any point? I haven't done a lot of testing but it looks like sends work, but that color/font support is limited.

-Astark
Aarchon MUD

[plamzi]

Originally Posted by ww_crimson Plamzi, I'm planning on hopefully messing with mudportal some time in the next few weeks, but was wondering if you had any plans to add full MXP support at any point? I haven't done a lot of testing but it looks like sends work, but that color/font support is limited. -Astark Aarchon MUD

I've pretty much added everything that has been requested (except for NAWS, which didn't make sense to me in the web context). It helps a lot if I'm guided to a specific game with specific commands / places where I can test specific expansions to MXP.

There are parts of MXP that I don't think anyone uses, so I'm not shooting for "full" anything, but devs who are using the portal heavily or customizing for their playerbase will definitely drive me to eventually support everything that their particular games implement and that will make their browser client experience better.

[ww_crimson]

Originally Posted by plamzi I've pretty much added everything that has been requested (except for NAWS, which didn't make sense to me in the web context). It helps a lot if I'm guided to a specific game with specific commands / places where I can test specific expansions to MXP. There are parts of MXP that I don't think anyone uses, so I'm not shooting for "full" anything, but devs who are using the portal heavily or customizing for their playerbase will definitely drive me to eventually support everything that their particular games implement and that will make their browser client experience better.

Appreciate the quick reply. With my initial testing the only non-supported feature I found so far was changing the font (like to Comic Sans MS). We don't legitimately use this feature in game, but we do mess around with it from time to time on the channels and while logged in through Mudportal you don't see any of the text. Ultimately this isn't a real concern for me, and I probably should have done more testing before hastily posting here. We've seen a few users log in via Mudportal and once a few other projects are wrapped up, I'm looking forward to diving into MP a little deeper.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by plamzi I've pretty much added everything that has been requested (except for NAWS, which didn't make sense to me in the web context).

Some MUDs use it for page breaks, which would still be useful for a browser client (for example when viewing long lists of information). Some MUDs also use it to wrap text, and may assume a default width of 80 characters if the client doesn't offer an alternative via NAWS. I wouldn't consider it a priority feature, but NAWS could be useful for some MUDs.

Originally Posted by plamzi There are parts of MXP that I don't think anyone uses, so I'm not shooting for "full" anything, but devs who are using the portal heavily or customizing for their playerbase will definitely drive me to eventually support everything that their particular games implement and that will make their browser client experience better.

I think you'll find MXP is one of those "chicken and egg" features. It has some features I would like to use (such as inline graphics and font tags), but I'm not aware of any generic free clients that support them, and I'm not going to add something I can't test.

Originally Posted by ww_crimson With my initial testing the only non-supported feature I found so far was changing the font (like to Comic Sans MS). We don't legitimately use this feature in game, but we do mess around with it from time to time on the channels and while logged in through Mudportal you don't see any of the text.

For me, the main incentive for changing the font is that it would allow me to use a variable-width font (which looks much nicer than fixed-width), but still switch back to the monospaced font when displaying tables and ASCII maps (as they need to be correctly aligned).

[plamzi]

Originally Posted by KaVir Some MUDs use it for page breaks, which would still be useful for a browser client (for example when viewing long lists of information). Some MUDs also use it to wrap text, and may assume a default width of 80 characters if the client doesn't offer an alternative via NAWS. I wouldn't consider it a priority feature, but NAWS could be useful for some MUDs.

When I was considering it, I went through the use cases you listed. It seems to me that a modern web client has a much easier way of handling these things for all games, rather than offering some kind of special treatment for the few games that use NAWS. For instance, the app has a split screen feature that lets you read long text at your own pace.

Likewise, offering the user a way to lift any fixed width (and using easy CSS for auto-wrapping) is a few lines long, and it will provide a more consistent handling across games than if I tried to calculate the current character width (for a user-resizable window with scalable font, mind you) and then told the server about it. Seems like a huge pain for the opposite of gain.

Originally Posted by KaVir I think you'll find MXP is one of those "chicken and egg" features. It has some features I would like to use (such as inline graphics and font tags), but I'm not aware of any generic free clients that support them, and I'm not going to add something I can't test.

Doesn't have to be. I'll meet anyone in the middle and test together. The <IMAGE> tag is so close to HTML that I just added support for <image url=""> in one line. It won't take very long at all on my end to support it fully. Just let me know.

Originally Posted by KaVir For me, the main incentive for changing the font is that it would allow me to use a variable-width font (which looks much nicer than fixed-width), but still switch back to the monospaced font when displaying tables and ASCII maps (as they need to be correctly aligned).

I'm actually not seeing a spec for setting a font name, so I'm not sure how ww_crimson is setting "Comic Sans MS" in another client. I hope he shares some details.

What I am seeing is the <TT> tag that is supposed to toggle "non-proportional font". If by that they mean "non-monospace" then, for the effect you are looking for, it seems like you would need to wrap most of your text in <TT> and then unset it for things that need to be displayed fixed-width? It seems like the inverse would be much less work.

Supporting <TT> will not be a problem, as I can just pick a good non-monospace font with extensive Unicode characters and allow the server to toggle in between. Are you requesting this feature and will you help me test it? (I know that you have your own custom client so not sure how much of a focus this would be for you.)


Also worth considering in this context of this discussion is that the Portal app supports HTML, so if no other client under the sun supports MXP <IMAGE> or <TT>, then you may want to tap into that for a wealth of display options, including showing actual tables, and setting any web font you can reasonably expect the user's browser to have, etc. If you want to do neat toggles instead of requesting the font again and again, just wrap it in a <STYLE> tag. There is even more flexibility available on the front end to extend functionality via the API.

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by plamzi When I was considering it, I went through the use cases you listed. It seems to me that a modern web client has a much easier way of handling these things for all games, rather than offering some kind of special treatment for the few games that use NAWS. For instance, the app has a split screen feature that lets you read long text at your own pace.

What I mean is, if the client doesn't support NAWS then the MUD may assume a default window height, because sending hundreds of lines of uninterrupted text will often disconnect the user. This is particularly a problem with admin commands that list all objects/mobs/etc in the game, but could also apply to skill lists and such.

Originally Posted by plamzi Likewise, offering the user a way to lift any fixed width (and using easy CSS for auto-wrapping) is a few lines long, and it will provide a more consistent handling across games than if I tried to calculate the current character width (for a user-resizable window with scalable font, mind you) and then told the server about it.

But once again, you'll find many MUDs wrap the text themselves before sending it, usually with a default width of 80 characters.

Originally Posted by plamzi The <IMAGE> tag is so close to HTML that I just added support for <image url=""> in one line. It won't take very long at all on my end to support it fully. Just let me know.

I can add an MXP inline image to my MUD if you want to test it, but you support MXP as well - you might find it easier to test on your own game, where you can adjust things directly.

Originally Posted by plamzi I'm actually not seeing a spec for setting a font name, so I'm not sure how ww_crimson is setting "Comic Sans MS" in another client.

You'd do it <FONT FACE="Comic Sans MS">like this</FONT> (see here for the spec, although the example it gives is wrong).

[plamzi]

Originally Posted by KaVir What I mean is, if the client doesn't support NAWS then the MUD may assume a default window height, because sending hundreds of lines of uninterrupted text will often disconnect the user. This is particularly a problem with admin commands that list all objects/mobs/etc in the game, but could also apply to skill lists and such.

Maybe there are games out there that support pagination only based on NAWS-reported screen height (and not the Diku pageset command e. g.). The problem is that from what I've read, I would also have to report the "screen" width, and given how dynamic that can be in the client, it's just not worth the headache.

Originally Posted by KaVir But once again, you'll find many MUDs wrap the text themselves before sending it, usually with a default width of 80 characters.

I understand perfectly what you're saying, but since I can't reliably (or easily) guess how many characters a player's text window currently fits horizontally, I'd rather go with the server default in this scenario. Line breaks at 80 characters are not bad-looking, and may leave some room on the side for the player to position other useful stuff. It would be worse if I report width of 300 characters, but the actual limit on the player's screen is 290... Not to mention that allowing variable-width fonts makes guessing the right width in characters pure voodoo material.

At the end of the day, I feel that if a game server is relying solely on NAWS, then it's probably more interested in the game being playable in telnet terminals than on the web. Otherwise, they can easily add a few flags on their end to make all text look good in a dynamic window.

Originally Posted by KaVir I can add an MXP inline image to my MUD if you want to test it, but you support MXP as well - you might find it easier to test on your own game, where you can adjust things directly.

No need. I tested it and it works. Now the ball is in other people's courts.

Originally Posted by KaVir You'd do it <FONT FACE="Comic Sans MS">like this</FONT> (see here for the spec, although the example it gives is wrong).

Thanks, I missed that. All font attributes are supported now: face, color, back, size, in any order.

[ww_crimson]

Don't have anything to add to the above, but I'd like to say thanks for adding the font face support. Hopefully in coming weeks I can move mudportal higher up on the list of projects. Thanks!

[Zivilyn]

plamzi, do you have the syntax for the MXP image use?
I'd like to play with that too (maps etc).

Thanks!
- Dave.

[plamzi]

<IMAGE URL=http://www.server.com/image.png>

I don't yet support any other attributes though. The image should just show up in its original size.

[plamzi]

Today, mudconnect.com is down again, and so I wanted to take this opportunity to point out what some of you may still not know, that the MUD Portal has a solid modern forum site section with active administration.

The portal was created during a turbulent period at TMC but was never meant to be a clone. Instead, I wanted to offer this community an easy way to game socially using a cloud app. I also wanted to offer admins and devs an easier way to reach new audiences.

To find out more, head over to http://www.mudportal.com

[plamzi]

The MUD Portal is even more social today than it was yesterday!

Now, you can use your existing Facebook, Google, Twitter, or GitHub account to log in.

If you still don't wanna, use the new /name | /nick command in chat to give yourself a temporary nick. Or just go by "guest", we don't care!

As long as you enjoy playing your favorite games socially, on a 21st Century client.

P. S.
FYI, Twitter auth seems to be the worst of the bunch. First, Twitter asks you for all kinds of permissions, including to post on your behalf (which the Portal site would never do). Then you're still asked to fill in a registration form because the details Twitter shares are too slim. I guess the only benefit is from then on you can use your Twitter credentials, if this is where you hang out.