Awhile ago (a year? 2 years? I don't remember), Materia Magica was kicked off TMS for rampant cheating. They, of course, claimed innocence. Another TMS user kindly sent me this link, which purports to be from the guy that helped MM cheat and lays out how he did it, including the script he used.



--matt

And? So what?

Your thoughts seem unfinished. What's the point of posting this?

On the other hand, wasn't there good old Merentha who cheated as well using scripts? They had like only 5-10 users logged on to their MUD yet ended up being in the top 3 on the List quite frequently before they got the boot.

Once a cheater, always a cheater. Medthievia proved that this year. A ban from TMS should be a permanent one. If a MUD is so pathetic they can't play by the rules, they deserve to be cast off like the worthless crap they probably are.

Take care,

Jason

I thought it might be interesting for people to know how they did it. There's no point other than that. I thought it was interesting, at least. I sent it on to Adam too so that he has a better idea of what to watch for in the future.

--matt

Wow. Really interesting post.

Thanks for the link!

Ah ok. Just the way you presented made it seem like you stopped writing mid-sentence without finishing your statement.

The words of a player who was banned from the game are not the most trustable words. For all I know, he was just throwing a tempertauntrum because he was banned. *shrugs*

Yes, that could be the case, but then, we know MM was cheating outrageously, and the guy did provide the source code he used to allegedly do it.

--matt

I know it's supposedly "rewritten from scratch", but it still looks and feels pretty much like any other ROM mud to me.

Nothing wrong with that of course - ROM is a popular codebase. It's just a bit stale for my tastes. If you look around you'll find a lot more originality in some of the newer muds.

Reading the thread Matt posted, it is obvious you are either a) an immortal at Materia Magica, or b) a disciple of the staff there. Its pretty easy to see you disagreed with the original (Lothos?) on every post he made on his forums criticizing the head IMP? Therefore I'd say your own post can be summed up as "hes not happy with the mud, he can't possibly have a valid complaint".

:shrug:

As a longtime player of Materia Magica (or Moongate as it was formely known) who has moved on to World of Warcraft, I have yet to log into the former for longer than 15 mins in the past year.

However, I do remember a time when I adventured with previously mentioned Lothos. He was always an overbearingly proud jackanape, convinced of his own superiority and determined to bend the rules to his own devices. Not only did he on numerous occasions invent "proof" for outrageous claims that later turned out to be false, but he also always had a kind of childish love-hate relationship with the game's administration. Just as with his interactions with others within the game, while he was being appeased and everything was going well, he would remain courteous, but as soon as something went wrong he would throw and tantrum, turning on anyone with his capricious nature and try to harm them through any means available (fabricating damaging stories, "haxorz", PK, griefing, etc).  Personally, while I can't be brought to care much in regards to if MM/MG was cheating, I would have to caution taking anything Lothos says with a grain of salt, especially if he truly was banned like someone else posted.

I remember certain members of my own clan, despite my warnings, tought him how to do multiple bosses. During one, as he rashly caused himself to lose (trash) equipment, he turned on them for childish reasons. Afterwards he proceeded to act in a juvenile and asinine manner to anyone related to them. (No change for me, I'd killed him repeatedly before and even managed to grab a portion of his equipment when one of his former clans let him die to a certain dangerous boss.  Now that I think about it, he also turned on that other former clan in a similar fashion.)

No wonder O.J. got off.

We know MM was cheating based on the voting patterns, as cited. It was obvious at the time to anyone watching the voting boards, but it just took a while to prove. Here's a guy saying "Here's how.", and providing full documentation which fully explains the patterns provided. And still people will focus on attacking the messenger.

What part do people feel is untrue? What evidence do you have for your opinion?

I am not part of Materia Magica's staff; though, I do play the game and enjoy it.
I just know better than to completely trust someone who's recently been punished. Its common knowledge that people lie and act spitefully when they get in trouble.
Its not uncommon for someone to claim an authority abused their powers in game or IRL, despite having done wrong.

Also, thats a pretty bad summary. Like Tyben, I'm just taking what Lothos says with a grain of salt.
But most likely, Vassago has no intention to argue with Lothos. As such, the argument would be pretty one sided. Therefore, I am just posting logical counterpoints to what is being said.
--
As is, people were spamming the message boards of Materia Magica chanting 'vote, vote, vote.' Because of the ammount of spam, I doubted Materia Magica was well ranked solely because of cheating.

But even if Materia Magica did cheat, it doesn't mean Vassago had knowledge of it. A player wanting to boost his favorite game's rating can rig the votes without telling the games owner he is cheating.
--
As is said, people who know Lothos, like Tyben, know Lothos's personality. He doesn't have the best history.

Heh, no kidding. How much more evidence to people need?

I know Lothos to be a lot of things. A liar is not one of them.

I believe most people on these boards have enough administrator experience to tell a disgruntled player. We have all dealt with them and can form our own opinion. Thanks for your concern.

"Moongate" (as Materia Magica was first known) began as modified ROM, complete with stock areas and all. Eventually version 4.0 was expected, and was supposed to be a complete rewrite from scratch, however, it wasn't. Vassago merely covered up the much more recognizable stock traits. But even to this day, 10+ years later, you can still find bits and pieces of stock ROM in the game - and all this without crediting the original MERC/DIKU/ROM authors in any way, shape, or form.

As it pertains to voting: I know first-hand that at least 6 of the games listed most often in the top 10 cheat in one form or another. It's not blatant cheating like Materia Magica, it's more "bending of the rules", however, I'm of the opinion that cheating is cheating is cheating is cheating (and I know I'm not alone). You can find your own evidence littered all over these forums in countless threads and posts. Hell, there has even been rule modifications in order to justify some of this cheating over the course of this site's history.

So I, for one, tend to be a little more than jaded when someone like the_logos (known quite well for advertising IRE in almost every post with or without relevance) jumps at the chance to discredit another MUD so blatantly and publically, regardless of the reasoning.

Why not tell Synozeer then, and let him kick the offending MUDs off? Adam is happy to kick off MUDs that cheat. He's kicked off multiple cheating MUDs, from Materia Magica to Merentha to Medievia. On the other hand, if Adam doesn't think a certain practice is cheating, it's not. He is the sole materially relevant judge on what is and isn't cheating, and he clearly felt MM was cheating.

I don't need to discredit Materia Magica. They got caught cheating. Synozeer kicked them off. That is what happened, and there's no embellishing of anything going on. *shrug*

--matt

Please present your evidence, then. If you can prove those allegations, I'll help you organize the research and pass it on to Synozeer.

If, however, by "rule modifications in order to justify some of this cheating", you mean that games are doing things that are OK by TMS's rules but not OK by the set of rules you would use to judge them, then it isn't "cheating". But if someone is breaking TMS's rules, please share the knowledge and let's keep the voting fair.

Wow. You people are actually buying Lothos's bullcrap lol. Nice. Welcome to Lothos's game of chess. The_logos seems like another good pawn for him. I can't wait for him to go play your game and give hell to the playerbase ,but mainly yourself.

Seriously, this guy has done countless things to MM that should have gotten him deleted long ago. I remember one time his site forcing people using some sort of trojan like virus to post comments and spam the entire player profiles on MM. Man, that was awfully nice of him. The guy, as Tyben more or less said, is bipolar. You can't be nice to him. You can't say anything personal, and so help his little nerd fingers you CANT say or do anything to **** the little ankle biter off.

This guy was a horrible part of MM and I am glad he's gone. I'm sure many players are glad he's gone. The only reason anyone liked the guy was for his stupid quest tracker. I'm sure he had some other "real" friends on the game but it was only a matter of time before he went insane and became a hermit again. I am still laughing that he's crying. He finally got what he deserved and so he can't handle it and is trying to once again make MM out to be this horrible place. Nice, but totally untrue.

Anyway, the only positive thing I can see out of all this is "Any publicity is good publicity." You guys can throw insults at MM all day, but the fact of the matter is, we are, and will always be a better mud. Get used to it and stop taking every chance you get to bring us down a notch. Worry about your own damn mud. This crap happened TOO long ago to care and the only evidence you have isn't evidence when it's completely made up (Lothos told me himself mind you that it was because I, am good friends with lothos you see, but I couldn't sit back and watch it happen.) So to all you morons who believed him HAHAHAHAHA

I think you're reading too much into it. MM was banned for cheating - that's an undisputed fact. Whether events occurred as Lothos described is just speculation, but the method he described is certainly of interest to many readers.

Here's a link to an entire AIM (?) dialog, spanning several monthes, between Lothos and Vassago.



This log and Vassago's own comments on other MUD's, their administrators, ROM codebase, and his "IRC warrior days" should shed some light on the real person behind the game.

I was approached even before Lothos to have a voting program written, back in 2000-2001.  This was when Realms of Despair was constantly #1, and he just couldn't "figure out how", even though they had 3x as many players logged on at any time.  The deception and cheating are but bubbles in a pool of problems that plague the game's administration.  The people posting in Vassago's defense are not people who have dealt with him on a personal level, or been involved in other aspects of Materia Magica.

Lothos has been an outspoken critic of changes and problems on Materia Magica, but he has also been a valuable supporter and resource to the game and administration.  His website alone is the most full featured, highest traffic site the game has ever seen.  The time and effort he has spent developing PKZone, working with administrators to fix bugs, and even writing code for the game itself, far surpasses that of any player on the game.  He was not a person who ever badmouthed or disliked the game, but one who hoped open dialog could spark positive changes.  His characters were deleted not for cheating or being a troublemaker, but because he decided to speak out against Vassago's censorship on his own site.

Having tried all the MUDs that have consistently appeared on the TMS Top 100, I have given Materia Magica two attempts. Both times I've been as unimpressed as possible. The word pathetic doesn't really describe my feelings toward what they offer. So, claims that Materia Magica didn't cheat from individuals that also claim it's a good MUD make me laugh.

They cheated. Synoozer should boot them off permanently. One less piece of trash cluttering up the list.

Take care,

Jason

I think it's sad that you're so willing to conflate "having a different opinion" with "being a liar." Your personal opinion on MM's quality is precisely as valid as anyone else's (including the posters defending MM), and is beside the point of this thread. To claim that because someone's opinion on the quality of MM is different from yours they must, thus, be lying about something else is just as silly as claiming that because someone likes Neopolitan ice cream (I think it's crap), they must be lying about how Neopolitan ice cream is made.

MM is a popular game. They've obviously done a good job of making a game that a lot of people consider quality. They were also booted off for cheating. I can't see what one has to do with the other.

--matt

Because, as with many aspects of life, certain people (in this case, owners of MUDs and their MUDs themselves) are favored over others for a multitude of different reasons. This is an indisputable fact of life. In particular, there is no such thing as an objective ranking system. I've seen more rules modified to accomodate these particular games and their owners than I care to discuss. Does the fact that game A broke the rules and got removed and game B broke the rules, but got the rules changed so they could stay, mean that game A is in any way 'worse' than game B? Many here would say yes. I say no.

I assume that a game that was actually good wouldn't have to cheat outrageously to get ahead.

It's a bit like succeeding in a sport through heavy drug use, then claiming that you would have been able to just win without having to sink to those depths. I say 'a bit' because from what I understand, even with all that cheating MM still couldn't win. Sad.

This being the case, why are you still here and talking?

If I thought the fix was on and corruption ruled the day, I sure as hell wouldn't be here metaphorically ****ing in the wind. I'd be out doing something less stupid, such as going outside and literally ****ing in the wind.

I agree with Ixlone. And it seems that we're that mud that you guys are all just waiting to jump on and cheat. Hey, I never cheated. Hell, 99.9999% of the playerbase cheated. The fact is, logs can be made up and even if those logs are true there are huge chunks missing. Vassago can't make a player stop cheating and so we all suffer because of one jackass. Surprise surprise. So don't tell me WE cheat. WE don't cheat. Certain players might, I can't say they don't. I'm sure your muds are good but honestly you must feel some threat by our mud if you're going to bring up an issue three years later. Ignorance is a bliss.

When that "certain player" is the owner, it rather reflects poorly on the game as a whole, regardless of the circumstances. It makes no difference whether Vassago created the voting script on his own (though he apparently lacked the technical knowledge to do so) or had to have Lothos do it for him, in the end, Vassago sought out means to cheat and did so.

Yes, that certainly explains why Vassago sent me such an angry email after I posted that web address. Do you think he was angry because he appreciates this thread and the exposure? Or do you think he might be angry because he doesn't like his cheating brought into a discussion again? I'm going to go with the latter.

--matt

Because even though I disagree with the ranking system (popularity contest that doesn't reflect actual game quality) and how its rules are created, enforced, and modified, I still enjoy reading and discussing things pertaining to the MUD community every once in a while on these forums.

I don't think that's the case for anyone here.

There probably have been other MUDs banned from TMS at some point for cheating in a similar way, but this is the one we all remember hearing about. If you'll look at the start of this thread, the_logos wasn't trying to bash MM down. That they were caught cheating is not debatable, it is, as you say, yesterday's news. Rather, it was about the how it was done. Is it so hard to believe that in this community, people would be interested in that?

Anyway, even if people were threatened by MM (I'd personally never heard of it until they were caught cheating and that whole debacle), I doubt they would be now. If a person does great and benevolent works their whole life, but then is caught trying to pick up a twelve year old boy in a chat room, they'll forever after be just a child molester in the public eye, whether it's fair or not. Cheating to get ahead on TMS is kind of like that. Whether MM is a good or bad MUD, no one will ever after know or care, here -- if you mention it, people will just be like 'Oh, that cheater MUD?'

Whether that's fair or not, that's the way it is. No one feels threatened by a cheater MUD anymore than Mother Theresa is worried the child molester is going to edge her out for sainthood.

Whatever, Rastus.  You cheated in the game for years and were rewarded by being placed on the staff and being given an Immortal.

Nice job toeing the company line, though.

I guess the first few 'insider traders' should be considered wholesome, blameless, upstanding people like you, since after all, there was no rule against it until they did it.

You don't actually have to break a rule in order to be doing something immoral or unethical.

Well isn't this interesting. Here you are quite publically announcing how you think "traffic is traffic" regardless of voting practices (read: cheating), which is quite peculiar considering how often you're found insulting games who use questionable voting practices.

In fact, it seems as though you like to dance on that fine line between legal/illegal, right/wrong, etc. As I believe KaVir once said, you're more interested in following the letter of the rules rather than the spirit - which to me, is no better than those who break them.

Yes, I'm completely interested in the letter of the law, because the letter of the law is what the law is. Different people have different versions of the "spirit of the law," and there's no valid way to claim that your personal interpretation of the "spirit of the law" is any more valid than anyone else's.

What I (and the site owner as far as I can tell) care about are what the rules are according to the person who interprets them (the site owner). You're free to inject your opinion on what you think the rules should be, but they aren't until the site owner says they are. Similarly, it doesn't matter a bit what you think about whether there is, say, a constitutional right to privacy in the US. What ultimately matters, and what IS the law is what the final interpreters (the US Supreme Court in the US) say. As far as I know, Adam (site owner) has never accused us of breaking any rules here, whereas MM was kicked off for breaking rules.

In any case, it'd be nice to see a little moderation here. What I personally have to do with this thread is a little beyond me. It's quite off-topic.

--matt

Using bots to vote isn't "traffic". There's no one coming to the site, and thus, none of the muds listed here even get a glance from real players. That's why this kind of vote cheating is so harmful to the people interested in this issue. One person is generating hundreds and hundreds of votes for one mud that is sending no traffic at all.

Regardless of what you think of the_logos personally, this issue has very little to do with him except that he managed to find that article. Many of us have always wondered exactly how MM pulled off the obvious voting bot.

What's sad is you misquoting me. Nowhere do I say "being a liar". That's your own petty twisting of my words. What I said was that claims from someone that thinks Materia Magica is a great game obviously are coming from a biased source, a source that is unlikely to consider fully that their MUD was caught cheating. It's not lying, it's just denial based on a biased, favorable opinion.

Lying would be claiming I said something that I didn't when you know well enough that I never said that in the first place.

Take care,

Jason

I think it's sad that you're projecting your apparent inability to understand that it is possible to like a product and still be critical about it or its management onto everyone else. I like Google. I think what Google is doing in China sucks. I'm quite sure many MM users are capable of engaging in the same sort of distinction. From their point of view, they have no knowledge of the cheating. They themselves didn't cheat, and no doubt Vassage says he didn't authorize any cheating. They may not even have been playing MM when the incident happened, and so from their point of view, saying MM cheated may just be the kind of thing they've been assured is a lie all along. They have no reason to trust anyone here more than Vassago, for instance.

--matt

Hmm, I always figured he was doing it using a bank of anonymous proxy IP addresses ... amazing that they were all from the same subnet/ISP and it still went unnoticed for so long.

And again, where did I say they were lying? Hmmm?

I'm not projecting my "apparent inability to understand that it is possible to like a product and still be critical about it" as the person I was refering to wasn't critical of the product they liked. If they had, they'd be a good example of someone relying critical analysis rather than preconceived bias. But that's not what they did. And it's sad that you keep twisting the situation in order to try and insult me rather than recognize that.

But I do agree, they have no reason to believe anyone here any more than anyone on the MUD. However, I ask again. Where did I say they were lying as opposed to simply not being informed or having a biased opinion?

Jason

What I remember most about this incident was the graph that showed MM's voting.

It looked like stair steps. They would go for 6-10 hours averaging like 2 votes per hour. Then they would have like 100-200 votes in a 10 minute period. Then they'd go another huge span of time with barely any votes.

It was incredibly obvious that a computer script was doing the voting. If indeed Vasago denied he was cheating (I don't recall one way or another), then you really have to just laugh. No rational person would deny they were cheating when faced with that evidence.

As someone else mentioned, the thing about this type of cheating that was particularly bad was the fact that it was not even real traffic. Thus, MM was benefiting from the traffic everyone else was sending ("risking" their own players) and yet they were not risking anything to get all of their votes.

If I recall, there was a period of time where MM was getting these massive vote surges despite not even having a vote icon on their web page. That was when they definitely didn't want to risk even a single player coming to TMS and possibly trying a different game. Too funny.

I brought you personally into the discussion because it seems highly relevant to me when someone finds it necessary to debase others for things they themselves have done before.

Materia Magica got votes illegally and was banned because the rule was already set.

Achaea got votes illegally and was pardoned because the rule was not clear enough yet - after which it was made more clear so you could stop dancing around the "subjective" (as you regard it) spirit of the rule.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...

How the heck is having 1 person generating hundreds of votes by proxy even comparable to spamming your own playerbase? Spamming your own playerbase only hurts yourself and your own players because you could annoy the crap out of them enough that they stop playing your game, and you're sending them to a site that offers the same type of games that you run.

What MM did more than broke the spirit of the rules; it completely and utterly demolished it. Comparing the two really lets MM off light.

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that my post wasn't clear. Achea (I butchered the spelling of the mud name, I'm sure) was the one sending spams to its playerbase to vote. (The details of this has been thoroughly covered in another thread long since ended.) When I played MM, no one I talked to knew anything about voting, so they clearly weren't getting spammed.

It is my opinion that if this cheating method still works (whether it does, I dont know) its link should have been sent to Synozeer and not to the public. People are going to abuse it, and maybe better than their predecessors did.

Actually I wasn't referring to Achaea's spamming of the playerbase. I was more referring to their rewarding of people who voted (which they don't do anymore because a rule was set in place to stop them from this "cheating").

And if you really want to question my logic, just think about it this way. You're under the impression that this log is true - and as such, Lothos is behind the "crime". If you owned your own business and one of your employees cheated on his taxes, should your business be shutdown and held responsible? How can you possibly correlate the actions of a well-known disgruntled player to the morality of the games owner(s)?

Oh, wait - I forgot. Vassago asked him to do it, so says the log.

"And thusly Lord Vassago said unto his servant, Lothos, 'Taketh your army of vast numbers and cast thy opinions at the Great Ladder in droves of thousands! Do this and thy shalt be rewarded with Divine Quest Equipment and Everlasting Legend Status.' Thus sayeth the Log, and the Log is Truth."
-- The Log 4:17