Since the thread about non-donation Muds was closed down for reasons not quite clear to some of us, I am opening a new one on the same topic.

Not all of the ones on the list below are in the top ten, but most of them have been up for years, they are stable and balanced, they are just as good as the commercial ones, and they offer a definite alternative for players, who don't think that real life money should have any impact on the gameplay.

The really free Muds need all the exposure they can get, since they don't have the funds to pay for banners and advertisements. The best of them are run by skilled and dedicated people, who donate their own time freely, with no other reward than the joy of creation. The general spirit among truly FREE muds is to share, and the development of muds is largely due to skilled coders generously sharing their code with the community.

So here is the list again, as it was going, when the thread was closed. Feel free to add more to the list. And please stay on topic, this thread should stay open.

The object of this list is to put the spotlight of the high quality FREE muds that exist.

Medieval Times
Carrion Fields
Shattered Kingdoms
Armageddon
Sloth mud
Abandoned Realms
Discworld
4 Dimensions
Realms of Despair
Harshlands
Shadows of Isildur
Aabahran

(Post edited April 14th 2006, to stop the constant derailment of the_logos and followers)

Moved here, to Advertising for Players.

--matt

Just writing another post, hoping that the moved thread will show up properly on Recent Discussions.

--matt

I don't quite understand why it was necessary to move this thread. The other one was posted on the Tavern, and the topic of common interest.

It's not equal to posting an advertisement for a single mud.

The other thread was someone asking a question about which MUDs don't sell things - information gathering. This one is a thread promoting MUDs that don't sell things - advertising.

Just a point: At least one of the organizations running a MUD on your list sells things to players to pay for hardware.
--matt

The only difference I see is you mentioned more than one mud, but you are still basically advertisting for them. There are probably hundreds of muds that aren't pay for perks, yet you only mentioned a mere fraction of them.

I don't have a clue why the original thread was closed down as I stopped reading it days ago as I tend to do once topics reach more than 2 pages worth of posts.

Curiously, "It's the weeeeekend! Triple exp at wotmud.org" was not moved, but this more general post was. I'd direct you to the "Matt as a Moderator" thread, but it was locked.

As for our inclusion on the list: We don't sell anything that impacts gameplay in the slightest, though we to sell non-game stuff like T-shirts and whatnot to help pay for the costs of operation, if anyone cares. We don't pay salaries or otherwise "keep" that money, however-- it all goes back into the game.

I guess Matt didn't learn from the closed thread on him (probably not a great thing to have the moderator in question close a thread about themselves).

You really should be more cautious Matt, and thank you Anitra for opening up this subject of conversation again.

Which doesn't make them anything but free since it's not only voluntary but has no impact on the game itself. It's the same as if they set up a lemonaide stand in their driveway and sold lemonaide to pay for their hardware costs.

Don't derail this thread too like the last one with poor arguments.

Take care,

Jason

...

I'm pretty sure Xyllomer doesn't sell any in-game content, though you can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an all that avid player.

That's the statement that Matt was reacting to, I'm fairly certain. Carrion Fields gathers donations, hence doesn't pay out their own pocket. Nothing insulting about that, so I think you can put the hatchets down.

There's another mud which belongs on that list of fantastic free muds, my old stomping ground, . In fact, there are 100s of great totally free muds where you can't buy your way into perks.

It's difficult to say which is "better" as that's not exactly an objective question. pay4perk muds do have the advantage of being able to afford professional programmers ie get things done, which is certainly an area that I think a lot of the non pay4perk muds have problems with.

Thats true to a point, but not fully. You would still want to have coders that are experienced in your types of games. Then there's the whole thing where many "real" programmers don't think of a mud as a "real" job.

If you are a fan of complex, kickass group PvP combat, there is a great 100% Free MUD called Everwar. It's a fun, intense MUD - and it has recently opened its second version.



Check it out. My pick for the MUD to beat for great group PvP.




Other good 100% Free PvP combat MUDs;


Godwars II [very original, very fun solo PvP]


Clandestine [very balanced, fun, medium-to-large playerbase, unique, and intense for both solo and group PvP]




--- and if you enjoy very complex worlds with small/medium sized playerbases, I suggest the following lesser known 100% Free MUDs;


Awakened Worlds [Shadowrun MUD, small-to-medium playerbase, very complex world/gameplay/character customization]



4 Dimensions MUD [A very unique/complex game, with a good staff]

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to create a list of MUDs that are pay-for-perks, considering there are so fewer of those than totally free ones?

Gosh, I'm sorry if a factual correction to a factual assertion by the thread poster is considered "off topic" by you. I'm not sure where you derive an 'argument' from there. It's simply a minor correction.

--matt

An irrelevant, hence off-topic, correction since how they get their money to pay for hardware is the same as the other MUDs on that list, ie not from charging in any way for perks in-game.

Jason

They do pay out of pocket. Selling t-shirts or mugs is the same as selling cookies door-to-door. It's not related to charging for perks in the game. The money goes to the people running the website who are the same people running the game but it's not related to the game itself. The aforementioned t-shirts or mugs could bear the logo of the game on them but that still doesn't make them perks since no matter how many t-shirts you buy, you have no advantage over a player who doesn't have one. And since sales of t-shirts and mugs are probably not high enough to maintain the cost of running the game (after all, how many t-shirts and mugs does one really need or want for that matter?), the owners of the game in question may very well pay hardware expenses out of their pocket with the occassional alleviation of some of the cost from the sale of something off their website.

Jason

Can we get back on topic, please?  Last thing I remember this topic was about listing non-pfp MUDs, not arguing about god knows what.

And don't twist this into an attack on anybody else, but Prof and Matt, please don't argue.  I mean, if you have a MUD to say that's not pay for perks, say it, if not, don't.

I thought I should add a few,

Unwritten legends
Adventures unlimited

Both very very high quality, both very stable.

The secret of Atlas

The secret of atlas is totally free, it laways has been and i will see to it that it always is free. Its more improtant to me to provide a good safe environment for mudders of all ages to gather in, than try and make a few easy bucks. Our player ages range from 8 to 50 years old.

Our special items are earned thru contests such as token hunts, and dm guided quests/games.

Once players reach full remort status, they are then offered special item tweaks based on how many times they continue to remort throught extra lives. So it does kind of put our full remort players in a class of their own with each one having his/her own unique strengths, and it gives them the necessary motivation to continue playing.

We are very stable, and have been around for a long time, and are constantly working on expanding and opening new areas daily.

*Sparky pats his staff on the back for their outstanding efforts over the years*

Waddup, just felt as tho i should add a mud to the list :-)

Zebedee

link: zebedee.org

Great mud, medium size 3000-6000 rooms doesnt ask for money at all, Zebedee is full of great people who are willing to help you out with anything, Roleplay is encouraged but not manditory, there is restricted playerkilling but not much of that happens anymore. Come by and check us out :-) i started playing muds about 4 years ago and i always find that i come back to this one. Im usually on and am willing to help anyone start :-) hope to see you guys

I can think of at least two more groups:

3. People who don't in principle mind paying for a game, and who prefer paying for things they want when they want them to having someone hit their credit card once a month whether or not they play the game that month.

4. People who think pay for perks is a great way to get other people to pay for their entertainment (these are generally the guys who provide in-game services for in-game money).

Stilton

In all fairness, there is no way this does not impact the game at all. Once anyone pays money to the people running the mud for ANY reason, things change. Not only will things change in the minds of the admins themselves, but expectations will change in the minds of the players who buy these things.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with this practice, I am just saying that it is naive and unrealistic to claim this has no effect on the game or the way certain individuals are treated (or expect to be treated).

We haven't really seen much of that, and the one loud source of grumbling there is someone who, well, grumbles anyway. It's probably helpful that 95% of the staff has no idea which players have bought merchandise, and there's no simple way to connect player purchases to characters (we don't use an account system).

People get grouchy if they buy merchandise and it doesn't show up as quick as they like, but that's been a rare and understandable exception. Our forum conversations haven't changed in the way you mention. Maybe your playerbase is different. *shrug*

It would be nice if certain owners of commercial Muds would stop trying to divert the attention from the actual topic of the thread, by the repeated more or less veiled attacks on Carrion Fields.

I repeat once again: The object of the thread is to cast some spotlight of the totally free quality Muds that exist, and to establish a list of them, to make it easier for potential new players to find a really good free mud, without having to sift through hundreds of stock ones.

Muds on the list should fulfil the following three criteria:
1. No in game advantages can be bought for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

As far as I know, Carrion Fields fulfils all those three criteria. It’s also notable that the allegations don’t come from the owners of other free Muds on the list, which logically would be the first to react if they thought something was fishy.

We all know that there are some shady mud administrators out there, who cheat by giving unfair advantages on the sly to certain players (mostly their own morts, or their friends). But to imply , as Threshold seems to do, that the owner of Carrion Fields would do something equally unethical, is rather insulting, and Valg should be commended for keeping his calm. There is absolutely no evidence to support such an allegation, on the contrary there is a lot to suggest the opposite. Let me just point out a few facts:

1. Valg is a widely respected member of the mud community and during the many years that I have monitored these boards, I have not once seen anything that would question his integrity.
2. Carrion Fields has a large and loyal playerbase, dedicated enough to keep it constantly in the top 10. This would never be possible if there were a widespread dissatisfaction among the players.
3. Carrion Fields also allows reviews of their mud, in contrast to most large commercials. This again speaks of high integrity, and I don’t recall seeing a lot of accusations about favouritism in these reviews.

To return to the original subject:
Setting up a list of high quality free Muds, will help the owners on that list to get a bit more of the attention they deserve, and should above all be a good service for players in search of a good mud where paying money for perks will not affect the gameplay.

If you know of any more Muds that fulfil the above 3 criteria, and in your opinion are good enough to match the already established standards on the list, please post them on this thread.
But please also keep the high standard demand, since we don’t want the list to get diluted. Naturally the selection will be somewhat subjective, but the collected knowledge of the members of the list, should be enough to keep the standard.

Also, please keep the entries short and sweet, without any longwinded advertising for a particular mud, that is not the main object of the thread. It is the existence of quality free muds that the attention should be focused on.

The list will be updated regularly with unchallenged new entries.

Antira wrote:
I know you don't want to hear this, but in that case, no MUD qualifies. There's no way for an administration to claim that in-game advantages cannot be bought for RL money as it's not under the control of the admin. They can only specify that they, as admin policy, disapprove and will punish people retroactively, but at that point, in-game advantages have already been bought.

I'd change this to, "The mud administrators or controlling organization doesn't sell in-game things to the players" though that does have a fairly different meaning from what you wrote above.
--matt

Exactly. Like the time I saw the circus at Madison Square Garden. I bought a t-shirt, then demanded that they upgrade my seat and let me ride the elephant.

Holy cow, really? When I bought a t-shirt, they would only let me ride the donkeys. They said that if I wanted to ride the elephant I was going to have to buy a t-shirt and three mousepads.

--matt

1) In answer to the allegations being made, I'm the one who handles the money for CF, so to speak.  If a player buys a whatnot, I process the request, send them a thank-you, and make sure the whatnot gets to them.  All I have is an automatically-generated email with a contact address and the name that was on the credit card.  I'm not sent anything about who they're playing currently, and I don't really care.

1B) I suppose they could reply to my thank-you and tell me "I'm currently playing X!!!  Help me out! LOLZORS!", but that hasn't happened once in my career as an Implementor.  If it does happen, it certainly won't have a positive impact on how I interact with that player.  

1C) If a player bribed a staff member (no T-shirt involved, just mailed them a check or whatever) and I found out about it, the staff member would be fired on the spot.  (We've fired some people during my tenure, but never for that.) The possibility that a bribe could happen in the future doesn't make us a "pay-for-perks" MUD. See below.

2) Carrion Fields states up front that OOC influence on IC issues is not allowed.  In other words, we have a rule that buying a whatnot doesn't get you special treatment.

3) Therefore, if you say that buying a CF whatnot leads to special treatment, you're accusing me of accepting a bribe and breaking our own rules, since I'm the only one with both the information and the access to grant IC "favors".  If you want to level that accusation, it would be courteous if you provided proof that it is happening anywhere but in your mind.

Until someone comes up with any such evidence, I'll continue to state what we stated at the beginning of this thread: Carrion Fields doesn't sell anything that impacts gameplay.  (Unless the T-shirt keeps them so warm that it steadies their typing, or the keychain keeps them from locking themselves out of their house.  Feel free to start another thread on that.  It wouldn't surprise me.)

It's not about a bribe to a staff member though. It's about players selling stuff to each other, which you cannot prevent and which you won't even know about most of the time. Heck, players selling things to each other for real money is against our policies, but it has definitely happened and there's little we can do about it.

That's what I was commenting on when I said that there's no way for a MUD to honestly claim that there are no RMT happening in it and thus that real life money doesn't affect gameplay. The MUD can only claim that it has a policy against it, but then, so does Blizzard, and World of Warcraft gold is the single most traded game-related virtual asset in MUDs/MMOs.

--matt

Muds cost money to run and as far as I know, there's a whole bunch of muds which fund themselves through fundraisers such as Valg's - ie using merchandising etc. We certainly do. But the thing is, there's no in-game gain there, and that's what all this is actually about. Maybe the label of "profitmaking" muds would be a sharper illustrator of the difference for people. Ie there are muds out there which exist purely to make money off people (Med, IRE) and use such mechanisms as pay-for-perks to do so.

Now I'm sure that some of the profitmakers are outstanding but I also have this perception that they're a bit cheap and deceitful. Cheap, because they're leeching off the work of us free guys - who do it for the love of our games, and who already have it much more difficult because we don't operate with the luxury of advertising budgets or professional programmers. Deceitful because it's all dressed up and labelled as "free", which is an offensive description to those of us who know the real meaning of what a free mud is and is supposed to be.

I guess with less and less mudders around nowadays, maybe they're finding it harder to attract people from the outside, so maybe they're concentrating on places where it's easier to get their players, such as here. Maybe another topic should be started in the Blue Tavern in which we (the non-profitmakers) could discuss ways to combat those profitmaking muds and leech something back. I don't think it would actually be that hard really. The key is to choose the battles carefully, choosing battles that they can't really pursue because they might cut their bottom line. Ie just giving away stuff that they'd charge for. Anyhow, as interesting as this is, it's just a detraction and not really what this topic is about.

Clandestine MUD
Godwars II
Awakened Worlds
Everwar


All four, great MUDs, in different ways. They should definitely be on the list.

Well, I can tell you that we turn a profit, but I can't speak for Medievia or other commercial MUDs without seeing their books.

Leeching? My company sends more traffic here than anyone else. We're not leeching. We're contributing far more than most MUD organizations do to this site. We're also the biggest financial supporters of TMS, which, I might add, is itself a commercial enterprise.

And here we go again. No point in arguing about this really as all the arguing in the world isn't going to change the fact that the way we use free is simply the standard in the games industry.

--matt

Anitra, could you please update your first post with all the muds added? And add something in your post, perhaps in caps, that says it will be updated with new muds added. Perhaps that would keep people from starting to read the nonsense and just moving on.

Sorry for asking, but who exactly sets standards in the games industry? Because, since MUDs are such a limited commodity, and your definition of free is always reference to "standard in the games industry", i would have to ask where this standard comes from.

Luvan wrote: : April 10 2006,23:58
It’s a bit remarkable, (and I don’t mean this in a positive way), that most of the trolling is done by the moderator. One example among several:

the_logos wrote: April 10 2006,16,07
One has got to wonder if there is there anyone else beside the_logos who didn’t understand that I was referring to the administrators, not individual players? For those that didn’t, here are the criteria with a clarification:

1. No in game advantages are sold BY THE ADMINISTRATORS for RL money
2. The mud is fully operational and well established
3. The mud has qualities that distinguish it from the large mass of mostly-stock muds

And here is an updated list, this time in alphabetical order, to make it easier to follow. (I don’t have time to add the URLs now, but I’ll do that next time the list is updated, unless someone else cares to step in and do the honours).
Feel free to suggest more Muds, as long as you keep the standards up.

4 Dimensions
Aabahran
Abandoned Realms
Adventures unlimited
Awakened Worlds
Armageddon
Awakened Worlds
Carrion Fields
Clandestine
Discworld
Everwar
Godwars II
Harshlands
Medieval Times
mume- multi users in middle earth
Realms of Despair
Shadows of Isildur
Shattered Kingdoms
Sloth mud
The secret of Atlas
Wheel of Time MUD
Unwritten legends
Zebedee

Many would say the gaming industry is one of the most amateurish "professional" industries. Looking at the_logos as an example of that "industry" is proof enough of that, though he's far more unprofessional than average. He's also an extreme small-fry and probably the joke of those in the industry that even know who he is so don't judge them all by him.

Take care,

Jason

Matt's view is due to his extremely limited knowledge of the types of MUDs out there. He's familiar with Viagra MUDs and the types of players that play those. As a result, he judges everyone by the rather low standards his MUDs and his pbases probably exhibit. There are plenty of MUDs, administrators, and players who are disgusted by the thought of OOC factors, especially real money, having an influence on their game. All of the MUDs I've seriously played in my life (that would only be a total of about a dozen) had policies against money being a factor and there was a general disgust at the very thought. It wasn't done (though that's not to say that occassional new, short-lived players didn't cheat in other ways).

But if all you know if Viagra MUDs, you might be convinced that everyone's out to spend money too.

Take care,

Jason

Just don't complain when your posts get deleted, Jason. Not even an attempt at decency this time around.

That standard comes from what's considered "accepted use" in the game industry, I gather. MUDs being a 'limited commodity' has little bearing on the fact that they're infact games.

During some down time tonight, I began to go through the list and try some newer, less advertised or known Free to Play MUDs.

.Dimension 2 and Resident Evil: Re-incarnate, both from AJS Games, both struck me as unique and fun(and completely free).

If you are a fan of Resident Evil, high-tech/gunnery style games, good maps(RER's actually adds to the horror setting, because of how well their line-of-sight works), then you should definitely check ou this newly released game.

.D2's system seems to borrow elements from Final Fantasy, Diablo II, and .Hack; the combination is actually implemented very well, and I had the most fun trying these two newer MUDs that I've had playing a new MUD(as opposed to the same old established PvP MUDs, or my testing/playing my own MUDs) in a long time.

Check them out, definitely, and add them to the list. Particularly Resident Evil, simply because that is a great genre for an innovative MUD, and it really has not been looked into in the past verily.

I'd like to suggest adding LegendMud to the list.

It has a similar time travel theme as 4 Dimensions, but is a bit older. It's a very good mud with an unique world, and as far a I know totally free.

What lack of decency? I'm simply stating facts. Matt always approaches any topic regarding MUDs from the perspective: that of his own. While that's understandable since that's what he's most familiar with, it's not universal. And yet, he phrases everything as if it were universal. For example, the RPI community hates OOC influence (at least most of it does, as I said before, but then some would consider part of the RPI community to not really be RPI). So, no not every MUD has people using real money to influence the game. In fact, I play a MUD that outright refuses donations to help support it. Its owners pay fully out of their own pocket. Period.

As for the gaming industry, it is a joke. Lucrative? No doubt about it. But it's not taken seriously by a lot of people because its products are seen to be designed for children yet are used by "adults". Geeks, nerds, etc. are terms used to describe gamers and the industry. Even accountants, the long-suffering geeks of the business world, are more respected than the gaming industry. And are the stereotypes accurate? In some cases, yes. Some gamers are total social retards, stereotypes to the letter. Does that mean the stereotypes are fair? No. But it's not a lack of decency that makes me point it out. I'm just being honest.

Take care,

Jason

Ours is much smaller than anything else on that list, so perhaps you won't consider it "well-established" however Dragon's Den has been around since the 1980s. And we're run entirely off of volunteers. No profit coming in and no perks out. We have information in regards to donations (which include hardware) but we rarely get anything in. And we don't use stock. Period. All our rooms, mobs, objects are intricately detailed by the good people who do this for fun. I'm trying to think if there are any other muds I have to add to that list beyond our own, but I think you've added them.

And I agree, it's sad but true. Truly free muds have a much harder time when it comes to advertising and it's good to see a list of them being developed.

You mean 1991 - still, 15 years is an impressive lifespan for a mud.