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#1 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 147
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I was going to post this in the other thread but didn't want to be shunned for being off-topic and such, and as someone mentioned, here's a new thread for this...
If what was posted in the other thread is indeed true, if Aardwolf IS accepting money and IS giving in-game rewards, where's the shunning, blackballing, flaming, etc every time Aardwolf is mentioned, that other 'license breakers' get?? Call it sour grapes or tattletaling or what-have-you, but if Medievia is going to get crap EVERY TIME it's mentioned, I would think that another game doing the same thing should be treated the same. Where's KaVir asking for code audits? Where's the removal from certain sites because of this issue? Why isn't this game being treated the way they should be treated, as another 'bad part' of the MUD community? Ok, that's that rant, here's another.. Quote:
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#2 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 37
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The "once a derivative, always a derivative" does not quite hold true. You can look for example, at the recent SCO versus the-rest-of-the-world litigation and the discussion that followed. As SCO claimed that the Linux sourcecode contained copyrighted works of SCO, both IBM and Opensource (and Linus Torvalds) requested SCO to identify the infringing pieces of code so that those could be rewritten.
Now, according to the "once a derivative, always a derivative" rule, obviously no such rewriting could occur, especially since the parts SCO claims they own the copyrights to, have been released in source format. Hence, if the "once a derivative, always a derivative" rule actually would hold up in source code development, a single code contribution could pollute the development of large projects (indefinetly, since those code contributions could not be replaced by non-infringing pieces of code), thus making the whole open source development model unviable. |
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#3 | |
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,306
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Let's not go there though. The DIKU license holder is clearly aware of what Aardwolf is doing and the fact that he's not sued them, hasn't expressed any outrage over it, etc tells me that he doesn't view it as a violation of the DIKU license. It's funny that the only people who get outraged about this are just observers rather than the people who are supposedly being hurt (the license holders). And, as has been said before, the DIKU license prohibits profit, not revenue. Without financial statements, there is no way to determine whether a profit is being made or not. --matt |
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#4 | |||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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But if your mud - which has stripped out the credits, removed the copyright notices, and makes sufficient profit to live off - is allowed to remain in the listings, then I see little chance of getting Aardwolf banned. Quote:
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#5 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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#6 | ||
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,306
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I swear, I'm half-tempted to just buy the Diku license and remove all restrictions so that people can just stop having these pointless arguments and so more MUD operators have increased freedom to operate their MUDs as they wish. --matt |
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#7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Name: Lamont
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Posts: 436
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Thank god, someone listened to me on the forum!
But anyways, now that this is in the proper medium, I'm going to say one thing: I really don't care. The makers of DIKU rarely care, so why should I? The way I think of it, if the DIKU people don't feel the need to take action against Aardwolf, then there's no issue. It's not like Aardwolf is some small-time MUD that can get away with this stuff because it's "under the radar". I think the DIKU people have heard of this, and really just don't care. That's all I have to say. |
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#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 37
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#9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: www.sharune.com
Posts: 359
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It is pretty simple imo... diku owners don't care because if they care, it would probably cost them more by taking any legal actions or whatever against people abusing their license than they would ever get from doing it. Its not worthwhile for them to care about it.
Now... if a game like everquest gets in the loop, they start to care (and I even recall they looking into that or something) because they would probably have something to win from it. |
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#10 | ||||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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And nobody has said that Hans is "working" with them. Aardwolf have simply claimed that he looked at their new codebase and was satisfied that it is original. I also looked at the Medievia codebase, but I hope you're not suggesting I worked with them? Quote:
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#11 | |||
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,306
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Kavir wrote:
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Look, if the Diku license spelled out that there are restrictions on charging for products made with Diku, that'd be one thing. It doesn't though. Quote:
--matt |
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#12 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 36
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I believe the original authors have explained themselves several times as to why why they never took any action. I've corresponded with Michael Seifert several times a few years ago. Mostly to simply say thank you and apologize for the actions of a few people that I disagree with and I was sure he did as well.
I honestly have no problems with muds that sell stuff to keep their mud running, or for that matter to make a living. But I definately have a problem with people yanking the credits and claiming it as their own. Ofcourse, I would never play one:-) Each of us has to draw the line somewhere... Our mud is one of the oldest Diku's in existance. Over the first few years, somehow the credits were removed. We were contacted by the diku website, made aware of our glitch and promptly added them back. Its just the right thing to do. The differences between Aardwolf and nameless mud is quite obviously in how they carry themselves. A small example of this is Vyrce's denial that he is a Diku derivitive. While Aardwolf's owner seaks out the original authors thoughts, opinions, and most likely blessing. Huge difference. There are many more but they have been rehashed enough around here, especially when it seems to somehow enter every thread... Shrugs... |
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#13 | ||||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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http://www.ilaw.com.au/public/licencearticle.html "A software licence is not necessarily a contract. It can be, but that requires a couple of preconditions to be satisfied. One of those preconditions is the existence of consideration on both sides. Consideration is a legal concept that simply means a quid-pro-quo, or something of value given by each party in exchange for what the other party provides. In the case of open source software, there usually isn't anything provided by the licensee of the software (that is, the person who uses it) back to the licensor (usually, the person who wrote it). As a consequence of this lack of consideration there is no contract between the licensee and licensor." Quote:
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#14 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,253
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If there are any people who worked on both, doesn't that make it not a clean-room situation? |
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#15 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 35
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It has been quite some time since our last contact and I still have to send him a final version of our new code before it goes live for a final verification that it has not been "contaminated" (his words) with DIKU code. |
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#16 | ||
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,253
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Quote:
Of course, all of this is pretty irrelevant since the DIKU license itself is relatively porous and the DIKU creators really don't seem to care. They seem to care more about the credits issue than the "profit" issue. I vaguely recall that the main reason for the "profit" stipulation was because they created it while at a University (from whence the name DIKU is derived) and the Uni required it. |
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#17 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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Quote:
It's a defence, basically. Documented proof that can stand up against the "abstraction, filtration, comparison" test, by providing an evidence trail of independent creation. If the original Aardwolf team also worked on the new mud, then they might unconsciously copy parts of it, which could cause problems during the "abstraction, filtration, comparison" test were the case to go to court. It could weaken their defence, although they've made a very smart move by involving one of the Diku team. |
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#18 | ||||
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,306
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Quote:
That's my opinion at least, and I think there's significant justification for it. In the end though, this is why the rule of law matters: It exists to resolve these disputes, and it's the only valid route for resolution of a legal dispute. Quote:
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Adding to DikuMUD doesn't make your mud part of DikuMUD, which is what most of the license talks about. Quote:
(Incidentally, I want to make clear that I have zero problem with anything that Aardwolf does that I'm aware of.) --matt |
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#19 |
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mill Valley, California
Posts: 2,306
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Diku license:
This document contains the rules by which you can use, alter or publish parts of DikuMud. DikuMud has been created by the above five listed persons in their spare time, at DIKU (Computer Science Instutute at Copenhagen University). You are legally bound to follow the rules described in this document. Rules: !! DikuMud is NOT Public Domain, shareware, careware or the like !! You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in any possible way. You may under no circumstances charge money for distributing any part of dikumud - this includes the usual $5 charge for "sending the disk" or "just for the disk" etc. By breaking these rules you violate the agreement between us and the University, and hence will be sued. You may not remove any copyright notices from any of the documents or sources given to you. This license must *always* be included "as is" if you copy or give away any part of DikuMud (which is to be done as described in this document). If you publish *any* part of dikumud, we as creators must appear in the article, and the article must be clearly copyrighted subject to this license. Before publishing you must first send us a message, by snail-mail or e-mail, and inform us what, where and when you are publishing (remember to include your address, name etc.) If you wish to setup a version of DikuMud on any computer system, you must send us a message , by snail-mail or e-mail, and inform us where and when you are running the game. (remember to include your address, name etc.) Any running version of DikuMud must include our names in the login sequence. Furthermore the "credits" command shall always cointain our name, addresses, and a notice which states we have created DikuMud. You are allowed to alter DikuMud, source and documentation as long as you do not violate any of the above stated rules. |
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#20 | |
Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Name: Richard
Home MUD: God Wars II
Posts: 2,052
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Quote:
No licence means no permission to copy, distribute, derive from or display the work, as these are all rights that copyright law grants exclusively to the copyright holder. |
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