[Dulan]

Ugh. I didn't particularly want to take part in this conversation again, due to a conversation I had with Bubba, however, I must now.

Players of DR/GSIII: The MUDding community has a (fairly long) standing viewpoint of P2P MUDs being trash. Our experience with P2P MUDs have not been with "legitimate" (So to speak) MUDs like DR or GSIII. Rather, they have been with MUDs like Medthievia and Achaea.

Read Vry...err, Mihaly's posts on this thread. Our experience with representitives of P2P MUDs are mostly with people like Mihaly/GenmaC/Qwave. Our generalizations of P2P MUDs come from long experience with trash. Please do not take any generalized insults personally - they are directed at MUDs like Achaea. Not at your MUDs. This Achaea flamewar has been bubbling for awhile, and jumping in yourselves on either side will likely get you burnt if you are not careful - even if the generalizations are untrue, they do exist. They exist simply because of people like Mihaly and Qwave.

-D

[SimuBubba]

Thanks for that post, Dulan.

It definitely means a lot to me and I'm also sure it means a lot to our players to hear that.

[GenmaC]

I don't pay to play anything. I code on my own MUD, and I'm a builder/imm on Cities of Glory (a free Swedish MUD). I've played several of the MUDs on the top 20 list. I've contributed in my own small way to several code snippet sites, and helped quite a few people get polymorphs working in SMAUG (as an example). I don't pay hundreds, tens, or even a single dollar to ANY MUD that I play, ever, nor do I plan to (I don't play any online game that requires monthly payment either - if it's not free to play online, I don't buy it).

So take it from someone in the "MUD Community" - shut up. You are making those of us who don't have jealousy issues look very very bad.

And, yeah, a lot of the people here might be bigger figures in the "MUD community" than I am, which is fine. Some might be better coders than I am. Some might run a bigger MUD than Cities of Glory. The point is, if it's against the rules, report it. If you just can't stand Achaea, say so, but please, don't claim to represent the "MUD Community", or give arbitrary decisions on which MUDs qualify to be part of the "MUD Community" and which do not.

[Dulan]

So, GenmaC, you are claiming to defend a MUD you know absolutely nothing about, and an administration you have no clue about?

Here's a buck. Go get a clue.

"Trash" is not the word I was looking for with you. "Newbie" fits better. Jumping on a bandwagon with no real information....Ugh.

-D

[GenmaC]

Here's a needle. Go stab yourself in the eye.

Reading the mindless ranting about Achaea is enough information for me (I do have a character on Achaea, btw...haven't yet found any need to spend on money on it).

The issue is simple. Is giving the 10% XP bonus, which is broadcast once every 24 hours, against topmudsites rules? If yes, then the listing is removed. Otherwise, what are you complaining about?

Is it ethical? I don't know, but that's not what the Administration forum is for, is it? The way you people go on, it's as if Achaea just committed a sin against humanity, and MUST BE BANNED/BAN ALL P2P.

I've only been MUDding for around 8 years, but in that time, I've sampled a fair number of codebases, administrations, and so forth. Saying that I have no clue as to what I'm talking about reveals the fact that you are, in fact, the one with no clue.

[Wik]

Just drop it, guys.

[Dulan]

.....

And around and around the mullberry bush he goes. Where he stops, nobody knows.

GenmaC: Whether you spent money or not on Achaea is irrelevant. It is a P2P game. Just not run professionally like GSIII or DR. Now, the point of this is not the exp reward. It's the total lack of regard Mihaly has shown for the MUDding community. He has lied. He has cheated. He has shown a total lack of ethics. He has acted like a ****ing two year old, throwing tantrums and insults every which way, and completely ignoring the points of countless posts in his responses of drivel. Regardless of what you may say, Mihaly is appearing very reminescent of Vryce right now, except for one key difference. (I hope that) He does not use a Diku-derived codebase. His tactics are the same. His attitude is the same. Even the damn "donation"/P2P systems are the same.

Now, if you want to argue with me, gladly. But, please argue against my points. Don't use the strawman tactic. I am not interested in flaming right now.

-D

[Edit: Nobody. Not no one.]

[yig]

I don't care what you said to Bubba. What you said to -ME- was that I had no right, effectively, to state my opinio because I was a new user. As in neener neener I've been her longer so you don't get to disagree. Well I'm glad I came to this forum to be educated. Your law school education and years of experience have taught me well why I play Achaea. Clearly you do not. Let me vote for it again, with that as today's reason.

[GenmaC]

LOL. Then why don't you and the rest of the pricks who decide who the "MUDding Community" is throw him out, take him off the little lists you keep in your bathroom cabinets, and be done with it?

Jesus. I don't know why I'm posting here. It's your wasted effort.

[Mason]

Zzzzzzzz.

[the_logos]

In the loosest definition of community, that is, a group of people who share a common interest, there is a MUD community. However, I did include 'meaningful community' for a reason. Humanity as a whole is also a community, insofar as nearly everyone shares (or at least professes to share), an interest in continuing to live. So what? Where you draw y our 'community' line is pretty arbitrary. You could decide your community-of-concern is humanity, a country, people who play MUDs, people with blue skin, the population of a specific MUD, only your close friends, etc. You may live in multiple communities, but no one concerns themselves with all of them individually. I like hiking, for example, but don't give a damn about any community of hikers that may exist. I just want to go out, and hike.

Myself, I care about communities that I have an active interest and participation in. For instance, I care very much about Achaea's community, because I'm a part of it. I care about the community of Achaean Gods, because we're friends and I'm a very active part of it. I care about the community of the mailing list mud-dev, because I'm an active member of it, am friends with a number of the other posters, and have been in it a long time.

On the other hand, in my attempt to join this community, I broke no rules. We simply attained the #1 spot by driving more traffic to the site, and this the fact that we did it in a more organized way than others had before sparked what looks to me like just a massive case of sour grapes. (When you should be thinking, "How can I grab some of his players that are dissatisfied with his game?") The next thing I see is a bunch of MUDs being attacked, including mine. The first post I make, describing our plans for our housing system, was summarily moved to some other board, and accused of being posted for the purpose of advertising (as if advertising to the couple hundred people who may have read the post is worth the time it takes to write the post.) Real nice way to welcome people to a community.

As for hurting the community, I fail to see how. I'm the one being attacked, not vice-versa. I throw a jab back now and then, but frankly, I've shown a lot of restraint given the absolute crap being posted by certain members of the community.

Communities thrive on disparity of viewpoints, not patting each other on the back and telling each other the same thing just because that's the majority viewpoint. A criminal is someone who breaks a law. The 'laws' of the rankings are clearly posted.

As for my character, the fact that multiple people on the list see fit to attack me personally says volumes about their character, if you ask me. I hope, and suspect, that it's not indicative of the nature of the community generally, because I'll tell you, this is one mean-spirited community if it is.

--matt

[crymerci]

Wow, this is an interesting group of personalities.

<gets out her Supersize Popcorn of Doom +3>

[Dulan]

Mihaly, trash is trash. Regardless of how much the trash may try to perfume itself and make itself look appealing, anyone with eyes can see that it is trash.

-D

[GenmaC]

Trash, newbies, wannabes...

[Dulan]

'Newbies' - Someone with a shield of protection vs. flames +5. They are either weak at flaming or arguing, or they are simply new.
'Wannabe' - Someone who should have a clue, but doesn't.
'Trash' - Someone who has a clue, but chooses not to exercise it.

Now go away, GenmaC. You fit under the 'Newbie' category - I'm not interested in arguing with you. Your arguments are not strong enough to make it interesting.

-D

[SimuBubba]

I think the biggest issue at hand here is this:

The people voting for Achaea aren't (necessarily) voting becuse they think Achaea is #1. Many of them (I guarantee) are voting because they're getting something out of it.

This (from my talks with various people in the TMS cummunity) is what has people upset.

Many of the admins and ops and imms who are on this list feel that the simple fact that your numbers are inflated with people who probably couldn't care less about the rankings, the exposure, the traffic sent here, or even the community on TMS basically cheapens the whole rankings system. The rankings list is now not about who the community feels is number one, but rather who can dangle enough carrots in front of their players noses to make the little numbers get bigger.

Personally, I think someone somewhere (be it with or without Achaea's admin's knowledge) is up to something hokey, since in the past few days, with a playerbase that's a mere fraction of ours, Achaea has STILL been able to maintain a lead of around 600 votes on DR. At some point, even with your players voting every 12 hours, you simply are going to run out of players left to vote. Instead, you continue to pull away.

So something is wonky in Happyville and according to the listed rules, its on Achaea's shoulders to find out what's going on, not simply to say "Oh well...we just are better at marketing and driving people to this site and you're just all jealous.".

[the_logos]

If there exists a MUD community, how could I -possibly- be disharmonizing it when only a couple hundred people are reading any of this? There's hundreds of thousands of text MUDers.

These forums are a community, there's no question about it. I, however, didn't do anything to disrupt it, and didn't violate any of its rules. It's you and a couple others who decided to begin attacking us, despite the fact that none of the objects of your attack attacked anyone else first.

Your comment about the FTC is just another example of your character. We've never had any problems with them, and don't expect to, as Achaea runs an ethical business, whatever you may think.

--matt

[GenmaC]

Ah. "Now go away". How cute is that. You're telling me to leave a discussion because you deem me unfit to discuss it with you. My arguements aren't strong enough. Wow. Cry me a ****ing river.

I judge people all the time. You seem to have the same habit.

However.

I sneer at your pathetic attempt to place me in your nice little categories. Anyone toting a signature like yours is marked as a complete and utter ****wit in any intelligent community.

So...get back to the middle school and finish up that match of "Yu-gi-oh" or whatever it is you kids play these days.

P.S. I'm not interested in arguing with you. You don't have a point. Instead, the_logos is evil, I'm a "newbie", and the MUDding world is overrun by "wannabes". Heh.

[GenmaC]

Think about this (really, do): If they are taking the effort to VOTE to get a bonus on the MUD they are playing, then they are interested in building their character. If they are bothering to play so much, then they obviously don't hate Achaea.

I mean, if they didn't like it, they wouldn't play it. If they didn't play, they wouldn't vote. Simple as that.

[Dulan]

Wow, my signature is still there?

I put it up there one day as a joke. I never realized that I didn't remove it. Thanks for the heads up, GenmaC.

-D