[Dulan]

Originally Posted by On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Dulan de Laal wrote: > Hello. I was told by Koryon that a member of the original Diku staff resided > at this address, and to forward my question to you. That is correct. > In relation to the non-profit clause in the Diku license - > I am pondering buying things offa amazon.com for various members of staff > (Hey, being a staff member is HARD work.), however, the Diku license is > rather...murky in this respect. Yes, its very murky in this respect. Certainly i can tell you that you will be in no trouble by giving them anything. The question is if _they_ will be profitting from the game by recieving it, and to what extend they have access to the game. If it is not something you have announced on the game, and not anything that can be considered payment for services rendered, there is no problem. If it is in the form; "Be a staff member and code on my MUD and recieve 2 books a year for free" it is not ok (for them). btw. i have seen people have amazon deals with their mud web-sites where they recommend fantasy books, and if the liks on the iste is used to buy, you get a (small) percentage. I find this a very neat way to help pay for the game. > Is this taboo? Is it okay? Am I just wasting your time? It is at the very least very murky. What we usually take action against is if the players are required to pay, or if they can purchase game items from the administration. This is the main purpose of the license. > Thank you for taking the time to read this, > -D > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >

Well? Care to repeat that? This is a verbatim email, with all the important details removed. (Sorry, guys, but I'm not giving some twink Hans-Henrik's email. He'll have to find it out somewhere other than I.)

-D

[Orion Elder]

Don't need to repeat a thing. My e-mail is almost a year newer than your own, and furthermore:

Originally Posted by It is at the very least very murky. What we usually take action against is if the players are required to pay, or if they can purchase game items from the administration. This is the main purpose of the license.

I repeat:
"This is the main purpose of the license."

The main purpose of the license is to prevent you from charging for the use of the game and/or parts of the game. Hans-Henrik stated that. Are you in trouble for giving them prizes? No. You're trying to skirt that issue. Are they for accepting? Possibly... but, there are ways around it (one such way Suggested by Hans-Henrik) that are perfectly legal. Again, you try to skirt that issue.

I won't continue to argue the point, though, because without more evidence (which, btw, I have provided in abundance, and from more than one member of the Diku team), it's pointless to continue doing so.

[Dulan]

-shakes head sadly-

Yet again, you jump on an irrelevant point to the conversation, and try to divert it. Straw-man argument, Orion.

-pat- I'd write out a flame, but I've given up putting the effort in to flame you. You make extensive use of irrelevant information/straw man attacks, bud.

-D

[Orion Elder]

... The point of your whole argument is that ritaker is violating the Diku license, which Hans-Henrik has stated quite clearly that in no WAY is he violating that license by offering to pay, and furthermore even if he DID give them money he didn't violate the license. The only one who MIGHT be violating the license is the one who ACCEPTED the money, and there are legal ways around that.

But, this is a straw-argument, right... addressing your statements directly, providing evidence that proves you wrong, and all that. *ROFL*

You're simply trying to attack the basis of my argument because you're wrong and you can't handle it. Grow up.

[Yuki]

So the other day, at a convention for the mud I run, my good friend Rod and I play a game of Magic with a couple of good-hearted kids from Wadsworth, Ohio. Now, besides the fact that they put crack and mercury in the water there to ensure everyone is totally brain-messed, what ends up is a 4+ hour game leading up to around 9:30am when we decide to just quit.

Now, why did we quit? The two Wadsworthians spent nearly 90% of the time arguing over the rules, the cards, how they're being played, antics, unspoken rules, name calling, past aggressions, and nearly anything else they could find to bitch about.

My point? I swear every thread on here comes down to the same thing. It reminds me of the Simpsons where some geeky guy asks Homer and the Itchy and Scratchy lady how in Episode #something-or-other, when Itchy pulls out Scratchy's skeleton to play it like a xylophone, he distinctly hits the same rib twice, but it made obviously two different sounds. Are we to believe this is some kind of magical, make-believe xylophone?

You are a make-believe xylophone!!!

[Xanferious]

lol, it started out as a small conversation and turns into Dulan war 2, heh.

[Dulan]

Heh. Amusing, Orion. I point out your straw man-usage, and you actually make an effort to attack me based on my points then.

Yes, my statement was incorrect. It is not the MUD itself that is the license violator - it is the coder. However, KaVir has pointed out this before - if a MUD is willing to hire coders who violate the license so blatantly, it does not say any good things about the MUD.

-D

[Galdor]

Ah Yuki,
that was a truly inspired point. However, you're missing one very important benefit of seeing arguments like this. Anytime I get frustrated with some of the stupid arguments and petty name calling that I see on a seemingly daily basis at work I can come here and read pretty much any thread and realize that life really isn't that bad and could be much worse!

[KaVir]

Originally Posted by It is not the MUD itself that is the license violator - it is the coder.

Right - however the mud admin is knowingly helping/encouraging them to violate the license, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were putting themselves in a legally dodgy position as well.

After all, if I hired a hitman (or even just a thug to beat you up) I'd find myself in extremely deep trouble. The same if I hired an accountant to fiddle my taxes, or paid someone to steal something.

[Orion Elder]

Yet again, though, the point that it CAN be done legally is ignored. On this point both Hans-Henrik and Katja Gamby (Nyboe) agree.

And your example is flawed, KaVir, as hiring a hitman or an enforcer is illegal... (at least hiring I hitman is, and I'm fairly sure hiring an enforcer is as well) Offering money to someone, to code, is not.

I won't comment on the 'dodginess' of the situation, though, as I honestly don't know... ethically, it might not be as dodgy as you may think. Many people don't think of GIVING someone things to work for them as 'profit.' The fact that others receiving the goods could violate the license probably never enters their mind. Legally, it COULD be a problem, depending on how it is handled.

So, you wanna pay me to code for your DikuMUD? Ok, I'll program the code separately, then integrate said code into your DikuMUD. Simple solution for that is to write code that does what you want. Take the payment for the code. Then install it for free. That makes it legal, and that was the suggestion given by Katja Gamby. I am then being paid for code that has nothing to do with the codebase. I am expressly making it work for that codebase free of charge.

The same can be done for building, if you want to go through the effort of writing the area, taking the payment, then installing the area for free (in this case you're being payed for the 'art', such as base room descriptions, mobile ideas, etc). Then once you finish, simply go in, add the descriptions and tweak the area for that MUD. Again, legal.

Maybe a thread in the legal forum, about this subject, would be a good idea. Would stop the degeneration of this thread into a legal discussion.

For those curious to what Katja Gamby said:

Katja Gamby on 08/16/2002 at 5:33AM EST:

Originally Posted by I just had to check with Hans-Henrik Stærfeldt, because I wasn't sure myself. It is actually ok to pay someone to code for you. It is, however, in violation of the license for the programmer to receive the money for working with the DikuMUD source (he is in effect using the source to make money). The license is followed if the progammer can enhance the game without using the source (creating independent modules), and then integrate these modules into the source free of charge. I hope this helps Katja Gamby

So... basically, do you work separate from the game, put it in the game for free, charge for the work you did before the installation.

[Dulan]

Hmm.

Hey, KaVir, doesn't Orion's arguments sorta remind you of Koldryn and his line of arguments?

-shrug- I keep reading his stuff, and have to keep checking back to be sure it's Ori, and not Kold.

-D

[Terloch]

I do believe the horse is dead, chopped into pieces, and is now the consistency of thin paste suitable for spreading on crackers. STOP BEATING THE DAMN HORSE AND SHUT UP ALREADY...

[Dulan]

Terloch......

Have you ever known the MUDding community to NOT beat a dead horse?

-D

[Orion Elder]

Dulan.....

Only when you're not around.

[Dulan]

Heh.

Koldryn, Orion, Koldryn. Even the whole dead horse argument.

(Amusingly enough, it is true. You got me to look at the old saved flames.)

-D

[AlazlamBL]

Firstly, please don't take me as some newbie to the forums because of my number of posts. I've been watching for a long time, I just don't make posts unless there's something I want to say. Alright, this is what I never got about the mudding community. People argure, disagree, that's natural. But I've noticed people looking past pretty obvious questions. I've seen people offer to pay 10$ a zone, pay for coding, pay for administrating, etc... The one thing I've never gotten is how do they do this? Regardless of licensing, and what's legal and what's not, how the hell can the person who does the work be sure that they will be paid? Personally, I work on muds and play on muds for fun. I do what I do because I want the game that I help to create and manage to be good. Good enough for players to come and have fun on and not have to worry about crashes and bugs or cheaters. I do it because I want to. Now, people that do it for money, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm curious, are you all looking for a quick buck? Or do you enjoy working on muds, but just want to make a little money on the side doing something that's already a hobby? How do you know you'll even be paid? Do you want pay before you give the owner access to the work? And the owner, what if he takes the work, and doesn't pay you? It's not like anyone is going to go through legal action for 10$, well at least I don't think they would. But what do I know. I mean it's just funny that everyone argues and flames about points that even if you win, and it is/isn't against the license it doesn't matter, since no one would take action anyway. Oh, and if I said something wrong just let me know in a nice way. Oh, and one more thing I've noticed. Most of the posts that I've seen offering pay to people have more spelling errors then posts that simply try to attract people to their staff without money. Personally I wouldn't trust people to pay me for services rendered if they can't type or spell correctly. That would be like going to an IRL interview and having your potential boss start talking like a 3th grader. Personally, I'd walk out on that interview. Also, people always say it was rushed. Well maybe take time to look over your post before you make it. That always makes things seem more professional and credable. Just a few points. Bye all, and peace. (Peace means be NICE when you flame this response to an already dead horse, and yea, I've seen flaming dead horses when Dulan wasn't around. And back then they could fly as well )