Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Tavern of the Blue Hand
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-22-2003, 02:24 AM   #21
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,248
Threshold will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That's great. You can obviously afford to pay for advertising. So, why do you need to be listed in the ranking list as well? Hrm? That was my point, and you just proved it for me. Thanks a billion, pal.
What makes this an issue of NEED? The name of this web site is Top Mud Sites. Read those words carefully. It is not "Most Needy Mud Sites."



Quote:
Originally Posted by
You're just as dumb as everyone makes you out to be. I didn't quite believe that was possible. I just made note of the paying $60 for the ability to connect and being expected to pay $10 a month to connect (note the ability to connect is not actually connecting). I never said which of those fees should be eliminated. Personally, if it were me, I'd eliminate the cost of the software. MUCH more potential for earnings there.
First, I guess I've already won this argument since you have to resort to blatant, ad hominem insults.

If I'm so dumb, how come I'm so successful? Seriously, calling someone "dumb" as the meat of your argument is really a terrible tactic of debate.

Second, You demonstrate again your lack of understanding of the gaming industry.

They charge an up front cost for the software in order to recoup development costs. MMORPGs these days have development costs upwards of $10 million. Furthermore, they charge up front to prevent people from getting $10 throwaway accounts to cause trouble.

Honestly, you need to obtain a BASIC understanding of the industry before you try to make suggestions for how they should do business. Furthermore, considering how incredibly successful of a market the MMORPG market is, it would appear they know what they are doing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by
I find it rather amusing that you ignored the part where I stated that I work for myself, and that I have simply tossed out some fees for my customers.
For all of them? You work for free? Many businesses give away services on occasion for certain reasons (ours included). That is not the same as being expected to work for free.



Quote:
Originally Posted by
People who expect a widely free entertainment field to be free are no better than people who steal software!
Widely free? The number of people playing *PAY* online RPGs is TEN to ONE HUNDRED times larger than those playing free games.

The field is widely PAY. The number of people playing the free games is actually quite small by comparison.

Please note it was *YOU* who made a comparative statement by saying the area of online RPGs was "widely free." Since you raised the point, I had to counter it.

So people who expect a widely PAY "entertainment field" to switch to being free is the same thing as expecting people to work for free to entertain you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wow, we should all bow down to the greatness that is the P2P God.
Who asked anyone to bow down to your "P2P God"?

You are the one saying Top Mud Sites should be some kind of communist environment where P2P muds pay the costs of operating the sites and then "free muds" get all traffic sent to their games. That is absurd.

Again, if you took the time to educate yourself you would see that muds ALL OVER THE LISTS get a lot of people trying out their games from this list. Both myself and my wife have tried games off this list from all over the rankings in search of a game for *US* to play. It is obvious that everyone on the list benefits. Proposing that P2P games shouldn't be allowed to benefit when they are the ones who PAY MONEY to keep the site running is absurd.

It is just another example of you expecting Person A to pay for something that benefits Person B.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 05:30 AM   #22
Azhon
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 50
Azhon is on a distinguished road
Uh. The simutronics games are obvious pay to play simply by their tag lines. Threshold isn't. Is it too hard to say "free trial" on your tag line? Others have done it, and they're doing very well.
Azhon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 07:26 AM   #23
Orion Elder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 346
Orion Elder is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by
What makes this an issue of NEED? The name of this web site is Top Mud Sites. Read those words carefully. It is not "Most Needy Mud Sites."
Melissa, this is the answer to your problem about it being a community. He's out to benefit only himself, and by and large many of the other P2P MUD operators behave similarly. Can't have a community when so many of them are vultures, like Threshold, willing to pick off the weakest of the pack in an effort to get a step ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
First, I guess I've already won this argument since you have to resort to blatant, ad hominem insults.
Actually, I was making an observance. If I were attempting to insult you, I'd likely be banned from the boards as soon as Synozeer caught sight of my posts. I generally keep my temper in check, though. Sorry to disappoint you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
If I'm so dumb, how come I'm so successful? Seriously, calling someone "dumb" as the meat of your argument is really a terrible tactic of debate.
Let's see... underhanded business practice, willingness to step on those below you to gain any advantage you can... yeah. You have the perfect corporate appearance. You behave like slime, and are proud to do so. Your intelligence has little to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Second, You demonstrate again your lack of understanding of the gaming industry.

They charge an up front cost for the software in order to recoup development costs. MMORPGs these days have development costs upwards of $10 million. Furthermore, they charge up front to prevent people from getting $10 throwaway accounts to cause trouble.
Good for them... what, though, does them charging the monthly fee in advance have to do with anything? I know I didn't mention it. Furthemore, I understand that there are costs quite well. But, in all honesty I really don't care. I am the general public, remember? To me, and many people I know, paying for a software then paying for the right to use that software online is a waste of money. If they provide a self-hosting capability within the game, so that you don't have to pay to play online, then I would understand. They very well may do that. I don't know. I've never played the game, and I don't plan on playing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Honestly, you need to obtain a BASIC understanding of the industry before you try to make suggestions for how they should do business. Furthermore, considering how incredibly successful of a market the MMORPG market is, it would appear they know what they are doing.
I need no such thing. I can go out and make any suggestions I like. You may not like them, but you're one of the soulless minions that is corporate evil. #### DARKSEID TO ####! Sorry, inside joke.

Just to clarify to you... success is not always intentional. It can often come as a nice side effect or out of sheer dumb luck (anti-biotics, anyone?). So, your belief that only intelligence and good planning can result in success... well, it's simply not true. Occasionally some people really are just in the right place... or they're slimeballs willing to kick their grandmother down the stairs. Your underhanded attempts to hide from people that your game is free until they actually go to the trouble of logging in fits into the latter category in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
For all of them? You work for free? Many businesses give away services on occasion for certain reasons (ours included). That is not the same as being expected to work for free.
If you really want to know, a few of my clients are MUD related. I have done the work for them for free, continuously. So, we've established that i have worked for some people entirely for free (and I still do).

However, I find your habit of twisting statements to be somewhat annoying. Nowhere did I say anyone should be expected to work for free. I said if they play off the cost as 'just a piddly' amount they should be expected to work for free. The costs for what I do are not piddly, and I make it clear up front that it can be expensive. I don't know many businesses who tell their clients in advance "this can be hard on your pockets." So, if you were trying to test my moral fortitude about what I was saying... well, you didn't do a very good job of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Widely free? The number of people playing *PAY* online RPGs is TEN to ONE HUNDRED times larger than those playing free games.
First of all, I will point out that the number of free MUDs as far as I know greatly outnumbers the number of pay MUDs. Now, I will address your statement. You already have an extremely large amount of people playing P2P games, based on your statement. So, why is it that you need to take a listing from a free MUD, again? Oh yeah, I forgot. You're successful because you're willing to do what it takes. Good job. Can't wait to see which option you choose when someone gives you the option to murder a puppy in cold blood for a hundred thousand dollars. I get the feeling poor little Rover will have a short lifespan, though I could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The field is widely PAY. The number of people playing the free games is actually quite small by comparison.
[

Yet you still feel the need to take those few players 'we' have available. Now, as I have previously stated... I do not particularly like P2P MUDs advertising using the ranking listing, but I can tolerate it. What I dislike is the P2P MUDs who hide or are not clear about they fact that they do take payments. If you find it so necessary to not make it clear on your listing here that you take payments, one must wonder why exactly that is. The most obvious conclusion is that you know without a doubt that you will lose incoming traffic. So you willingly choose to be deceitful about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Please note it was *YOU* who made a comparative statement by saying the area of online RPGs was "widely free." Since you raised the point, I had to counter it.
It is widely free. We're talking options of places to play. Not players. There IS a difference here. Though, I guess I shouldn't expect someone who is self-proclaimedly successful to care about the distinction between a human and a game..

Quote:
Originally Posted by
So people who expect a widely PAY "entertainment field" to switch to being free is the same thing as expecting people to work for free to entertain you.
You just called everyone who does not want to play a P2P MUD, even those of use who run MUDs, the equivalent of a software pirate.

The personal PC could be considered a 'widely pay' field. So, I guess in your eyes the free-software movement is evil. Do you support Palladium, the TCPA, and the Fritz Chip, too? Are you a backer of the RIAA? Nevermind, don't answer that. I think I already know the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Who asked anyone to bow down to your "P2P God"?
It's not my God. You and your belief that anyone who does not like the P2P is a software pirate accounts for that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
You are the one saying Top Mud Sites should be some kind of communist environment where P2P muds pay the costs of operating the sites and then "free muds" get all traffic sent to their games. That is absurd.
No. You pay for advertising, you get advertising. You make note you're a P2P MUD, that you take payments in your ranking listing and the info page for your MUD, you're listed if you don't list it in your ranking list and the info listing, you get banned outright permanently (after a warning, maybe). That's what I would propose. If it's absurd to expect people to be upfront and honest about costs, then I suppose I'm just being absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Again, if you took the time to educate yourself you would see that muds ALL OVER THE LISTS get a lot of people trying out their games from this list. Both myself and my wife have tried games off this list from all over the rankings in search of a game for *US* to play. It is obvious that everyone on the list benefits. Proposing that P2P games shouldn't be allowed to benefit when they are the ones who PAY MONEY to keep the site running is absurd.
I'm sorry. Where exactly did I say that if you pay for advertising that you shouldn't get it? Please, point that out to me. I said you shouldn't take up space on the ranking listing, and that is only if you do not list in your info and ranking entry that you're a P2P MUD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
It is just another example of you expecting Person A to pay for something that benefits Person B.
You really are this out of it, aren't you? At first I thought it was an act to bait me... but if it's an act, and you've been setting traps, you really have managed to fool me. But, I get the feeling it's not.

I'm done with this. You've made inane arguments, insulted the MUD community almost as a whole, attacked beliefs you assumed I had with no backing what-so-ever, and you still expect yourself to be taken seriously. That simply proves to me that you're far beyond the bounds of reality that most of us have to live in on a daily basis. Enjoy your dream world where everyone is rich and tosses money at you like it's on fire. The rest of us will be living in the real world... feel free to join us sometime.

Edit: I got so tired of responding to Threshold's drivel that I forgot about the bulk of his last statements.
Orion Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 07:34 AM   #24
Yui Unifex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Yui Unifex is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Yui Unifex Send a message via AIM to Yui Unifex
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
Unifex:
Pay MUDs make their money through the MUD. Free MUDs do not. If a free MUD's admin can come up with the money to advertise their MUD, that's great for them. Most free MUDs are not businesses, though.

I can not, and I will not, make accountings for whether they personally can afford to pay for advertising. That has nothing to do with the fact that they're running a MUD that is free to the public and they are losing advertising space to MUDs that are, essentially, getting more money for free by taking a space one of those free MUDs could use.
The only difference of qualification between P2P muds and free muds that I see here is that free muds are 1) losing advertising space due to P2P occupation and, 2) P2P muds are getting more money for free.

If there are is one remaining stall at a marketplace and I wish to sell my goods at this stall, and another person wants to give his goods away at this same stall, why does the fact that the person who wants to sell his goods change the morality of his occupying that stall? Likewise, why does the fact that a mud is P2P change the morality of their occupying a space?

If it's really because "they're getting more money", we'd have to write this argument off as ridiculous. Because there are countless situations in which people would be considered immoral in your eyes: If any business wanted to STAY moral with these qualifications, they would have to give up any limited resource as soon as someone who wants to give their services away for free competed for those resources. Needless to say, the effects of your justification would be disastrous.
Yui Unifex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 08:02 AM   #25
Orion Elder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 346
Orion Elder is on a distinguished road
Unifex, are you intentionally ignoring my statements to bait me, or are you simply not reading what I've posted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The only difference of qualification between P2P muds and free muds that I see here is that free muds are 1) losing advertising space due to P2P occupation and, 2) P2P muds are getting more money for free.
And they're doing it in one of the very few free, prominent advertising spaces afforded to MUDs, when they could easily pay for advertising, thus allowing both them and the free MUD to be listed. The P2P would have to pay, but they're more than likely going to receive money that would cover that payment (if not why are they listing there in the first place)... if the gains are so minimal from their listing, they're just occupying space someone who needs it could use.

So, just to reiterate by beating this dead horse to my left. They're taking advertising space on one of the few FREE advertising venues available to MUDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
If there are is one remaining stall at a marketplace and I wish to sell my goods at this stall, and another person wants to give his goods away at this same stall, why does the fact that the person who wants to sell his goods change the morality of his occupying that stall? Likewise, why does the fact that a mud is P2P change the morality of their occupying a space?
Can the person who wants to sell his goods go a block down the street, pay a moderate fee, and sell his goods? Is there pay space open that the seller can rent at the same market? Your example, while nice if you want to disable my argument and I were simply going to jump in, but it doesn't account for all the points within my argument. I'm done revamping examples, though (Threshold tired me out). Feel free to re-read all of my posts and come up with a better example, and I'll then reconsidering answering it. Right now, this example just doesn't encapsulate the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
If it's really because "they're getting more money", we'd have to write this argument off as ridiculous.
Let's say the P2P MUD is an executive. Let's say that the money in question is a pre-boxed sandwich lying on the ground (we'll ignore the potential sanitary problems) Let's say the free MUD is a homeless guy. This is the equivalent of the homeless guy going to pick up the sandwich and the executive snatching it from his hand and eating it in front of his face. Then when someone comments on what an ass the guy is being, he comes back and tells them it's their fault because people are whiny and communistic, and expect things to be free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Because there are countless situations in which people would be considered immoral in your eyes: If any business wanted to STAY moral with these qualifications, they would have to give up any limited resource as soon as someone who wants to give their services away for free competed for those resources. Needless to say, the effects of your justification would be disastrous.
Again, for clarification. It is about P2P MUDs taking one of the only free and prominent advertising venues, and kicking a few free MUDs along the way. Now, the main bulk of the P2P listings I take issue with are the ones who do not make it totally up front that there are costs associated with their product.

But, as I told Threshold, I've grown rather bored with this argument. So, I am going to sit back, have some tea, and work on my code some more.

Been fun, guys. Later.
Orion Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 09:56 AM   #26
Terloch
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 152
Terloch is on a distinguished road
Ok, going to throw my two coppers into this mess, and yeah, I'm sure someone on one side or the other (or both) will flame me.

I run a free mud, have for years, and even without the code licensing restrictions, I would't charge people to play regardless.  I don't run a mud to make money, it's sort of against my whole creative process (and my staff's).

For those who do run P2P muds, honestly, more power to you.  If you can make a living making games, and have a product people will pay for, once again, more power to you.

What I do have issue with is seeing the rapid decline of the "state of affairs" of TMS as a whole, which may or may not be attributed or affected by the entrance of large P2P muds on the lists.  When certain games came on the boards, we were literally OVER-RUN with people posting drivel, putting down any system that wasn't their precious one they've played forever, and generally ignoring that any sort of community was here in the first place, TMS was seen only as a way to get more exposure for their system.  Legal, sure.  Cheesy and annoying, sure.

What I also take issue with honestly, is the fact that people assume that simply because a game is paid for that it is better, or that an admin is full-time and that is their "job" that they are better, or whatever.  Deem me a "hobbyist" if you wish, but on average, I put in 30-40 hours, or more a week on various things for my game.  Not 5, not 10, 30-40.  Being that I am at my "real job" right now, and typing on here, I'd say that I put in more "real time" into my "hobby" than my "real job" at times (don't tell my boss).

As for the whole advertising thing, I can't honestly chime in about that, because we DO pay for advertising here, and have been the sponsor of TMS for quite some time now, and we shell out $100 a month to do so, with a portion coming from player and staff donations, but the majority of it coming from my pocket.  Do we get more players since we put in the ads, sure we do.  Have we gotten a few players from P2P muds, sure we have.  Have we lost more players to P2P muds than we've gained, who knows, I doubt it.

Enough of my rambling ranting, I'm just tired of being looked at as a second-class citizen from a third-world country simply because I'm a "hobbyist" and *gasp* run a mud in my spare time, with a *gasp* completely volunteer staff, and *gasp* give our service completely away for free...


Terl
Terloch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 10:13 AM   #27
Yui Unifex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Yui Unifex is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Yui Unifex Send a message via AIM to Yui Unifex
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
Unifex, are you intentionally ignoring my statements to bait me, or are you simply not reading what I've posted?
Perhaps you can highlight the important parts, then? What I see is an agenda propped up by some poorly thought-out arguments. I simply want to find the logical extrapolation of your claims. I do this so that everybody can easily see where the logic you use takes you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
And they're doing it in one of the very few free, prominent advertising spaces afforded to MUDs, when they could easily pay for advertising, thus allowing both them and the free MUD to be listed.
I don't think I have to quote the post where I pointed out this fallacy. Remember, even free mud administrators can pay for advertising. Furthermore, you're using flawed circular logic to back up your points: You state that P2P muds are occupying an advertisement slot; I ask why it matters that they're P2P muds occupying an advertisement slot, as opposed to a free mud; and you reply that this is because they're occupying an advertisement slot that a free mud could use! You're going to have to do better than that if you're going to convince anybody. In particular, we need to know what attributes of P2P muds make it immoral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
Can the person who wants to sell his goods go a block down the street, pay a moderate fee, and sell his goods?
Can the person who wants to give his goods away go a block down the street, pay a moderate fee, and give them away? This is the second time I've had to point out this fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
Your example, while nice if you want to disable my argument...
I love this quote =).

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
...but it doesn't account for all the points within my argument.
All those points that I've shown were irrelevant and that you didn't refute? =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
This is the equivalent of the homeless guy going to pick up the sandwich and the executive snatching it from his hand and eating it in front of his face.
So what if the free MUD administrator is a wealthy executive? This is the third time this fallacy has reared its ugly head.
Yui Unifex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 10:35 AM   #28
Yui Unifex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Yui Unifex is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Yui Unifex Send a message via AIM to Yui Unifex
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
I said if they play off the cost as 'just a piddly' amount they should be expected to work for free.
Playing off the cost as 'just a piddly' amount is done from the customer's perspective, not producer's perspective. If I sell a unit of good X for $0.10 a piece, and I sell 10,000 units of X, I receive $1,000. For the individual customer buying a unit of good X, the cost is "just a piddly amount". But for the producer whose income depends on the sale of mass quantities of these goods, this is most certainly not negligable, and it is silly for them to not be concerned with its pricing. Even changes in a fraction of a cent per individual customer can mean thousands of dollars of change for the producer.

Or would you rather the maker of such mundane inexpensive items as toothbrushes simply forgo their income?
Yui Unifex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 10:54 AM   #29
Orion Elder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 346
Orion Elder is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Perhaps you can highlight the important parts, then? What I see is an agenda propped up by some poorly thought-out arguments. I simply want to find the logical extrapolation of your claims. I do this so that everybody can easily see where the logic you use takes you.
*sigh* So far, no one but you and Threshold seems to be having a problem with understanding it. I will explain it once more since you have such a hard time grasping the concept. Pay MUD steal advertising space from Free MUD. Pay MUD can afford to rent advertising space instead. Pay MUD does not make clear that it is Pay MUD. Free MUD loses one of few free avertising spots to Pay MUD that can afford to pay for advertising instead.

Let's recap once more. P2P kicks the free MUD off of one of the few free advertising venues available (this seems to be where you get lost... there are not very many places that people can get prominent advertising for their MUD for free ... this is a boon to free MUD admin... it's a perk to a P2P admin, but as has been previously admitted by Threshold, they do not NEED the space here), P2P can afford to pay for advertising elsewhere, or even on this site.

If that still doesn't make sense to you... well, I don't really give a ####, but there is nothing more I can say to get the point across to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I don't think I have to quote the post where I pointed out this fallacy. Remember, even free mud administrators can pay for advertising. Furthermore, you're using flawed circular logic to back up your points: You state that P2P muds are occupying an advertisement slot; I ask why it matters that they're P2P muds occupying an advertisement slot, as opposed to a free mud; and you reply that this is because they're occupying an advertisement slot that a free mud could use! You're going to have to do better than that if you're going to convince anybody. In particular, we need to know what attributes of P2P muds make it immoral.
This was covered not only in my statements but in the stealing bread from the hungry analogy. If it's not yet clear to you, then it likely never will be and we're pointlessly dragging this thread out.

I also made it clear, I will not attempt to take into account personal finances. That has no relevance to the MUDs as entities. Free MUDs do not have a guaranteed source of income... they might get a donation here and there, but in general it will be nothing near the type of income a P2P MUD would have.

So, if you're fixated on this personal income issue, you might as well give up now... it has no relevance here, and continually bringing it up serves no real purpose.

If it's too hard for you to understand the clear and outright statement that I will NOT take into account personal finances, you have my sympathies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Can the person who wants to give his goods away go a block down the street, pay a moderate fee, and give them away? This is the second time I've had to point out this fallacy.
This will be the third time I've had to point out I will not take into account personal finances, thus your point here is null and void.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I love this quote =).
And not only have you ignored rather clear statements I've made, used bad logic (the point wasn't circular no matter how much you may wish for it to be), but now you're twisting what I say. Bravo. You've stooped to the level of troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
All those points that I've shown were irrelevant and that you didn't refute? =)
This is your opinion, and you are entitlte do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
So what if the free MUD administrator is a wealthy executive? This is the third time this fallacy has reared its ugly head.
This is the fourth time I've had to state I will not take into account personal finances.

I felt a few of the things you stated needed to be addressed, however by and large I'm done with this thread. I may read it with amusement, however I doubt I will be posting to it any further.
Orion Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 11:11 AM   #30
Molly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sweden
Home MUD: 4 Dimensions
Posts: 574
Molly will become famous soon enoughMolly will become famous soon enough
This argument is starting to get slightly ridiculous.  

I agree with Melissa that Pay-to-Play muds have been greeted with unnecessary hostility on this Board. Actually I think the majority of the posters here, like myself, have nothing against P2P as such. Judging from their posts on the boards most P2P Admins – with some noticeable exceptions of course – are sensible people, who run a straight business. What I - and many with me - do react against are licence-abusers and Muds who use unethical methods for advertising and boosting their number on the list. Most P2P muds seem to be sensible enough not to stoop to cheap tricks like that – again with one noticeable exception. But then again, I know of at least one ‘free’ mud that uses about the same tacky methods.

Personally I also dislike Muds that hand out in-game benefits against RL cash, for two reasons:
1. It sorts of defeats the object with a skill game, where the best player wins.
2. It makes me suspect that they use this as a method to deceive the players and pretend that their game isn’t actually P2P, when a fact is that you cannot really advance without shelling out cash. (This might not always be the fact, but it often is).

However, I actually think that the real threat against the Mud Community is not the P2P muds, but the masses of Twink stock Muds that swamp this and other lists. Mudowners/Coders once used to be professional people, who knew what they were doing. Now every 12-year-old and their Grandmother seem to be able to start their own KeWlMuD, and regrettably many do so too. And the drawback of that is, that the good Muds that still exist drown in this deluge and have a harder time getting themselves seen. And also that potential players stand a high percentage of hitting one of the Twink Muds at their first try, and consequently get discouraged to try another, because of this bad first experience.

THIS is a much bigger risks than P2P Muds occupying the higher spots on the list. And please, folks, let’s not get pathetic here with expressions like ‘stealing bread from the hungry’. We who run free muds do it as a hobby, not to make money from it. We aren’t exactly starving, and we are not asking for any handouts. Try to keep some perspective on things.

Sure, I’d like to see a $ icon at the P2P listings myself, but it’s no big issue for me. I run a small, free mud, we rarely peak above 25, and we are nowhere near the top 20. So what? We still run a cool operation, our playerbase has been stable for the last 4 years and we rather like the close-knit community where all players know one another by name and reputation. It’s been a long time since I stopped asking my players to vote for us. Frankly, improving our position on the list from 50 to 30 doesn’t seem worth to hassle the players over.
Molly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 11:15 AM   #31
Soki
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 37
Soki is on a distinguished road
Quick reply to Orion and Azhon on one point:

If you will click on the "Info" button next to Threshold, you will see listed under "features" as Pay per Play. It is not hidden on this site either.

Carry on!
Soki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 11:28 AM   #32
Yui Unifex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Yui Unifex is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Yui Unifex Send a message via AIM to Yui Unifex
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
*sigh* So far, no one but you and Threshold seems to be having a problem with understanding it.
But you seem to be having a great deal of difficulty refuting it. Maybe it's because you say the same thing over and over again, and ignore what I've said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
I also made it clear, I will not attempt to take into account personal finances. That has no relevance to the MUDs as entities. Free MUDs do not have a guaranteed source of income... they might get a donation here and there, but in general it will be nothing near the type of income a P2P MUD would have.
You don't seem to understand that personal finances are tightly coupled with your argument: You are saying that P2P muds shouldn't occupy a spot in the list because they can afford to buy an advertisement. I am saying that this point is impractical to apply because some free mud administrators can also afford buy an advertisement. You said yourself that you don't want to take into account personal finances, which demonstrates the impracticality of your logic. This is a central premise of your argument on the immorality of the issue, and without it your conclusion completely falls apart.

Furthermore, your argument makes complete sense to me, and I understand it fully. But remember way back there on the second page, where I requested that you give an attribute of P2P muds that decided the immorality of the issue? Your only attempt at giving one -- that they can afford an advertisement -- is what I have shown to be completely impractical to apply, and you've puzzingly decided to ignore it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
So, if you're fixated on this personal income issue, you might as well give up now... it has no relevance here, and continually bringing it up serves no real purpose.
I don't see how you can honestly say that it has no relevance here, given the evidence I've laid out for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
(the point wasn't circular no matter how much you may wish for it to be)
One point does not a circle make, Orion. Circular logic occurs when one point is used to 'prove' another point, and then that point is then used to 'prove' the point that was used to prove it. Repeating the same thing in response to all of my questions is most certainly circular; it shows that you take your argument as a given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Orion Elder @ foo)
Bravo. You've stooped to the level of troll.
Have a little maturity, will you? We're all adults here.
Yui Unifex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 12:44 PM   #33
OnyxFlame
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 153
OnyxFlame is on a distinguished road
Post

Ok, this argument long ago stooped to juvenile drivel that I barely managed to stomach reading through in order to have the slightest idea what was going on. Why can't you guys just agree to disagree? Why is it so important that you change someone else's mind? You can think the other guy is an ass all you want, but posting about it repeatedly just makes you look like a bunch of 5 year olds fighting over a toy car.

The reasons I don't play P2P muds are simple.

1. I have no money.

2. Percentage-wise, there are at least as many P2P muds that I wouldn't enjoy as there are free muds that I wouldn't enjoy. I prefer RP oriented muds, whereas the vast majority of either pay or free muds involve mindless killing of mobs. I can try out a free mud and decide it sucks and stop playing, without losing anything except a little bit of time. I couldn't do that with a good lot of P2P muds because in the process I'd waste money I don't have in the first place. There's no point in spending money on something that sucks, and if you don't know whether it sucks or not, why pay for it?

I see nothing wrong with P2P muds as long as they use ethical business practices. I'm not gonna get all rabid and bash them for trying to get money for entertainment. Heck, you pay for music CD's and videotapes and DVD's and internet connections, why not pay to play a mud if you can afford it and want to do so? I just don't happen to be one of the people who can afford it and wants to do so.

I do think, however, that pay muds should be very up front about what they cost and why. (i.e. muds where you have to pay for skill/exp advancements) Tell us what it costs, period. None of that "small fee" or "piddly amount" bit. $10 might be piddly to one person but not to another. Heck, to some people $100 is piddly. It isn't to me. If a mud which makes a lot of money can't put out the effort to specify its cost in an obvious place (including in their rankings here or on other sites), then why should I expend the effort to play it? If a mud which makes a lot of money can't put out the effort to specify its cost, maybe they're not putting a lot of effort into their coding and the running of their system either.

As for pay muds "stealing" rankings from free ones, why not just have rankings for various categories, as well as a master ranking? Not only could there be a pay category and a free category, but also categories for RP vs. H&S, heck maybe even for average number of players. If there were more categories all the way around, people would find it a lot easier to find a mud they could enjoy and stick with for years, whether they have to pay for it or not.
OnyxFlame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 03:16 PM   #34
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,248
Threshold will become famous soon enough
((( This was originally an actual point-by-point response. A few minutes later, I decided to go back and erase everything because continuing to argue each point seems to just fan the flames. I imagine that is of neither benefit nor interest to the general readership here. I left my statements that are 2 posts below because I felt it was important to point out OE's 100% false accusations regarding Threshold's TMS listing. Since I cannot delete this post, editing it out is the best I can do.)))
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 03:18 PM   #35
Soki
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 37
Soki is on a distinguished road
Thanks for getting everything right back on track, Onyx.

Comparing pay muds to starvation is taking things a little too far, I think.

There are plenty of P2P muds out there as well as free ones. For me, I just want one that I enjoy. I'm glad TMS is here to help me find interesting muds. I check the muds that seem interesting to me regardless of rank, but I check the ranked ones if they seem like something I would like.

No one is stealing anything from anyone unless it's Synozeer since this is HIS site.
Soki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 03:39 PM   #36
Threshold
Legend
 
Threshold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Home MUD: Threshold RPG
Posts: 1,248
Threshold will become famous soon enough
First, the statements that I and Threshold are such horrible, evil things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
If it makes you feel better you are in my opinion being immoral and taking advertising from those who need it, which in my opinion equates to stealing bread from the hungry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
Can't have a community when so many of them are vultures, like Threshold, willing to pick off the weakest of the pack in an effort to get a step ahead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
Let's see... underhanded business practice, willingness to step on those below you to gain any advantage you can... yeah. You have the perfect corporate appearance. You behave like slime, and are proud to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
you're one of the soulless minions that is corporate evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
Oh yeah, I forgot. You're successful because you're willing to do what it takes. Good job. Can't wait to see which option you choose when someone gives you the option to murder a puppy in cold blood for a hundred thousand dollars. I get the feeling poor little Rover will have a short lifespan, though I could be wrong.
... and I probably missed a few.


And then, the most important FOUR quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
That's nice. Is it mentioned in your listing here on TMS? What about your MUD's info link? Didn't think so. You are as bad as the rest of them. You lure them in enough to get them in the doors, when more than likely many of the people lured in would bypass you outright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
That's nice. Is it on your MUD's ranking listing or in your MUD's information listing? Didn't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
Occasionally some people really are just in the right place... or they're slimeballs willing to kick their grandmother down the stairs. Your underhanded attempts to hide from people that your game is free until they actually go to the trouble of logging in fits into the latter category in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Orion elder wrote:
What I dislike is the P2P MUDs who hide or are not clear about they fact that they do take payments. If you find it so necessary to not make it clear on your listing here that you take payments, one must wonder why exactly that is.
I wanted to quote these seperately as they are GLARING examples of how Orion Elder blathers on without making even the tiniest effort to EDUCATE himself about the topic.

FOUR times over the last few days Orion Elder accused me of not listing Threshold as a pay mud. He could *EASILY* have looked up our link. It isn't hard, we're right there on the front page.

Here is the link to Threshold's listing on TMS:

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin....=thresh

Please note that in the FEATURES section, it clearly says: Pay-per-play

Our listing has ALWAYS said that.

Seriously OE, before you spew insults at people you should at least spend a few seconds researching your accusations.
Threshold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 04:54 PM   #37
Dulan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 354
Dulan is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Dulan
Eh. I've been enjoying this Unifex vs. OE argument, Threshold, but if you want to jump in, I get to jump in too. And, unlike with the previous subject, you won't be able to use the constant emotional appeals as well as irrelevant points to your audience, because this subject has none.

-D
Dulan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 05:46 PM   #38
Kitsune
New Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 14
Kitsune is on a distinguished road
Angry

*rubs his temples*

Wasn't this beat to death once before?

- The annoyance previously known as TG_Nek
Kitsune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 06:19 PM   #39
Yui Unifex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 323
Yui Unifex is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Yui Unifex Send a message via AIM to Yui Unifex
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Kitsune @ Jan. 22 2003)
Wasn't this beat to death once before?
Believe it or not, to some of us this is new material. Perhaps you could enlighten us about the conclusions of the beating, or give an informative link?
Yui Unifex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2003, 06:22 PM   #40
Alajha
Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 49
Alajha is on a distinguished road
PTP MU*s go against everything I and my fellow Oldie MUDders stand for.
I don't know how to explain it... it's just an ethics thing. I love hosting MU*s. Though I'm currently not doing it, I've paid for multiple MU*s, and I would never ask anyone to pay to play on them... that's just gross.
Okay, so I'm an old DnD TT fan. And I'm willing to guess that alot of people who have been playing MU*s for 10 years + are, like me, against paying for MUDs.
Overall, I think it relates to the fact that we remember what it was like to have no money
Alajha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014