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Old 09-13-2003, 08:50 PM   #41
Delerak
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Uh, it's a substitute for AD, duh.

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Old 09-13-2003, 09:03 PM   #42
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You did state we are loosing our freedoms, and a few times you've stated in one way or another that the newer version of America (not the mid-20th century version unless you agree with the Birch-Putch plan of..erm..I believe 1973 +/- a few years.) that wants to spread freedom is stupid (which pro-equal rights anti government types call a New World Order when in fact having no countries but instead say, regions under a unified governemt where every person of every region was equal, would also decrease the seperatism the liberal left imposes on us)
As for I made a point about that and freedom. To slap an addition to that, I beleive Thomas Jefferson once said
Death happens in war but who is at more of a loss..the dirt poor man who dies for freedom or the anti-american who abuses their freedoms while protesting about the man that died so they could protest? I agree..some people dont need freedom. I wish marshal law would be instated for a brief time..say a week. Let people feel and expierence what a life with no freedom is like. A life where the government is run like they say it's allegedly run already.
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Old 09-13-2003, 09:07 PM   #43
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Old 09-13-2003, 10:13 PM   #44
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Hehe, well as far as I know CE is just a substitute for AD for the people who don't believe in Jesus. Who is historically recognized hence the BC, AD usage in history. I'm tired of debating, so I'm going to take a break, and go use my freedom of gaming and play xbox.
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Old 09-14-2003, 12:56 AM   #45
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Old 09-14-2003, 01:28 AM   #46
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The comparison would still be the same if you started from America's inception. France, Spain, Russia, Germany and Britain were not exactly isolationist saints. Now if you want to say that the US is overly hostile compared to Belgium then be my guest, the price all these countires pay for being a major world power is being drawn into (or creating) war.
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Old 09-14-2003, 01:09 PM   #47
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I never said it. I started in the thread againsttccpa, by saying I don't like America for all the blood it has spilt in the name of freedom and other words. Then I went from there, comparing it to countries in Europe, ALL the countries in europe. No where did I say america is the worst country ever and europe is gods land of holy men and all things great. Europe has it's share of tainted and nasty history; salem witch trials, joan of arc, englands opression in scotland and ireland, and many more, but never once did I say I was talking about those things, I am talking war. And America's war history is daunting, if you don't think so then YOU should go back and read what you wrote to me, all I was doing was comparing america's wars to european countries, giving chances to anyone to reply and prove me wrong. The fact that I was comparing one country to an entire continent was going to be difficult because I didn't lay down any rules, but I still believe america has destroyed more in wars than many of the european countries. Save the world wars, which I never wanted to count since america and germany and a myriad of countries did a lot of killing there.

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Old 09-14-2003, 11:03 PM   #48
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Old 09-14-2003, 11:41 PM   #49
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Yes she is. If you havn't seen Insomnia get that next, it's not a sci-fi like the core, but it's got al pacino and robin williams as well.
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:30 AM   #50
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Old 09-15-2003, 01:11 PM   #51
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I just think its pathetic and sad that the US goes in and destroys Iraq without any idea of what to do afterwards, at the protest of the rest of the world. Then they have the nerve to demand that other countries come in and help pick up the bill? The bill to pay Halliburton and other US multi-nationals with close ties to the Bush administration who just -coincidentally- got no-bid contracts to rebuild Iraq. Its just ludicrous. First the Bush companies siphon off our tax dollars into this scandal of a war and into their coffers, but now they want the rest of the worlds tax dollars?

As far as the government not being set up, thats because the Bush administration foolishly convinced themselves that the Iraqi people would welcome our occupying force with flowers and open arms. Either they didn't plan on what happened after the war, or they decided not to tell us the true costs of this war. Either they're incompetent or liars. It wasn't your liberal boogeymen who said a government would be replaced in no time, that was the Bush administration.

And regarding your ignorant comments about Israel and Palestine, I encourage you to do some reading on their history before you spout off some more nonsense.

- Ryan
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:03 PM   #52
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Actually, they are both incompetent and liars.
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:41 PM   #53
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Exclamation

Malaclypse,

Where to begin with that pathetic excuse for a reply? Shoot Delerak gave at least plausable posts that required some thinking. Your reply was just an accident waiting to happen..ok, here we go...

Welcome them? Well..seems a majority of the country has welcomed them and the idea of FREEDOM over a regime that beats their citizens and goes by archaic laws. Today, in the paper, a guy was beheaded in Saudi Arabia for drug smuggling. Gee..here in the facist regiem knows as Amerika drug dealers get to go to jail, get a college education, a movoe of the week and 3 hots and a cot. Guess you didnt hear about the numerous tapes of people getting beaten because they opposed Saddam. Dont see that happening here in America do you? Heck no because the Civil Liberites union would throw a fit. As for others footing the bill, well consider..this is actually a conti8nuation of Desert Storm. That was a mostly NATO operation. The US foots 75% of the NATO bills, equipment and manpower. Has any of the NATO nations even tried to pay back their debts for that? A few but not all. Speaking of which...how many countries that protested the US involvement have gotten US tax dollars in the form of economic aid for the last decade or more and still have yet to pay it back?
 You might to check this out then..

unless you're going to claim it's some Bush Jr. Propaganda tool..if so..check the date. It was proposed and discussed on 05 March 1991.
Sadly, you didnt comprehend my post because as I said...a government wont spring up fully ready to go over night. Shoot, Rome wasnt built in a day so why are all the Anti-Bush people and anti-American types think it's going to happen in Iraq..get a clue and buy a vowel. Even Chaney said to the press a few dozen times he didnt know how long it was going to take because starting a governemt from scratch takes time. Of course the current generation of liberal press junkies are in that "now now now" phase.

Oh like the millions each year democrats GIVE to illegal aliens in the form of welfare, medicade and food stamps? Can you say welfare fraud and aiding and abeting known felons? (last I heard..comming into the country illegally is a felony) What about the Congressional 'pay raises'? Seems the Democrats in power wanted that and got that. How many starving American kids are going to go hungry as you read this post because tax payer money that Democrats and their so called 'better social reform' are going to fatten their wallets? And you complain about Bush..please...every politician in DC is guilty no matter how you look at it and it's not just an American problem..you can find governmental corruption in some form or another in any country in the world.

Ok, look at what yoo posted besides that (I used the quote as sort of a bookmark) and look at what really said. As I'll say again...the anti-bush politicians are whining and complaining about "Where's this new government in Iraq??" and comments like yours. Again..look at what I said...a government does not just sping into being overnight. So basically you contradicted your piont and proved mine more.

Oh..so they havent been at each other's throats for centuries?? Wow..guess a ton of sources are wrong then. Ignorant? I dont think so...

Hrm..you're right..it's pretty much Isreal and everyone around them that's been at war. I guess using a current (as in the last 20yrs as current) timeframe was wrong...
**1948 War of Independence
**1956 Sinai Campaign
**1967 Six-Day War
**1973 Yom Kippur War
**1982 Operation Peace for Galilee

Even though UN Security Council Resolution 242, which called for "acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." the Arab position, as formulated at the Khartoum Summit Conference (August 1967) called for "no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel and no recognition of Israel."
Also...(takes a deep breath)....
Arafat and his PNC has yet to change the |PLO Covenant| contradicting all signed agreements to date:

This decision fails to meet the obligations laid out in Article XXXI (9) of the Oslo II accords in two respects. First, the actual amendment of the Covenant has been left for a future date. As of now, the old Covenant, in its original form, remains the governing document of the PLO, and will continue in this status until the amendments are actually approved. In legal terms, there is a sharp difference between calling for something to change and actually implementing the changes.

According to various assessments, this understanding would require the removal of anywhere between 10 and 28 of the Covenant's 33 clauses. Palestinian officials, on the other hand, have spoken of changing far fewer clauses, and the PNC decision leaves open the question of which articles will be amended

Arafat has raised a large army, the size of which far exceeds his peace accord commitments.  The enormous quantity and increasingly deadly quality of the weapons he has accumulated also exceed all the limits that he had promised.  The terrorist infrastructure under his control has not been dismantled. There has been no hand over of the PLO's illegal weapons, nor has there been extradition to the US or to Israel of PLO murderers of Jewish Americans and Jewish Israelis.  All of this is in flagrant violations of the letter and spirit of Arafat's signed international agreements.

(

)

All of this of course does not begin to cover Hamaas and their 'fun little outings' (yes..that was sarcasim)
of course there's also that just adds fuel to the "Let's go to war with Isreal" fire.

Ignorant? Nonsense? Pleae..go back to the school district where you graduated from and sue them for the education they robbed you of. When you're ready to debate like a big boy, you can come to the table with Delerak and I.

(edited because I had 2 links next to each other *blush*)
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:53 AM   #54
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Freedom at the end of a gun? Have you even looked at the news lately? There are massive demonstrations just about daily in Iraq protesting the US occupation. And this is only the stuff that gets onto our media, I'm sure there are a lot more going on that we don't hear about.

What are we doing instead? We're running around in circles looking for "baathist remnants" and "al qaeda cells". Rubbish, we need to establish a legitamite government of Iraqi nationals, not assume control of all their infrastructure and commence on a wild goose chase of "terrists", to use Dubyas slang.

We're not debating the pros and cons of the US justice system, we're talking about its foreign policy. Don't try to pull the same distraction tactics that your shock jock radio hosts do. I would hope you could treat the TMS audience with more respect.

Probably about the same number of countries the US owes. Check your facts, the US is currently in the largest deficit in its history, and thats down from one of the best surplus' we've had in recent history (under the evil Clinton *g*). Note that deficit equals money owed to foreign countries, in case you weren't aware.

Read what I said again. It is not the anti-Bush and "anti-American" types who are saying that it would have been done shortly. That was the Bush Administration. I know that governments aren't built in a day, and thats one of the many reasons I opposed this war in Iraq. Our government cannot afford an empire.

Excuse me, but in this country illegal aliens are not eligable for social services. What illegals do for this country, however, are enormous. For instance, Californias agricultural economy would crash in a day if the illegals were all deported. We depend on their labor, and give them virtually nothing in return. But regardless, even if millions were spent here, it DWARFS the billions spent on thousand dollar hammers and hundred dollar screws that are paid to pentagon defense contractors. Did you know the pentagon has brought in accountants to try to fix its books, but they couldn't do it because it was so screwed up they couldn't begin. But really, that isn't a partisan issue, why are you dressing it up as such?

Oh right, democrats pocketing money: EVIL!! Bush pocketing money: Hey, what can you expect from a politican? Come on, CSmith, I don't even expect this kind of two-facedness from you.

Funny you should mention this. After we carved up the map after WWII, we displaced thousands upon thousands of people off their land to establish Israel. The promise at the time was a Jewish state next to an Arab state. Israel was founded shortly after with much international aid. The arab state still doesn't exist.

Now Israel has been occupying the lands of the arab state for quite some time, and you're trying to tell me Palestine is the agressor?

The rest of your post is clever misinformationt hat I don't have the time to answer rtight now.... I'm supposed to be clubbing!

- Ryan
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:07 AM   #55
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Muaha, the argueing, I love it! Love it! Muahaha!
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Old 09-16-2003, 01:27 AM   #56
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Old 09-17-2003, 02:56 AM   #57
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So ummm... you are advocating the use of armed force to orchestrate an ethnocentric cultural imperialism in the Middle East and - simultaneously - seek to decry the expense of your much vaunted 'human rights' by sneering at the fact that in the US we educate our felons in hope of reforming them.  That we give aid and support to our poor in the hope that they can provide benefit to their society.  Did I get that right?

This sort of petty, inappropriate, attack is the hallmark of a defeated debater.  Please either concede now, or refrain from such derogatory commentary in the future.

What facts?  It's your assertion, back it up.  As for what countries we owe, perhaps a primer in macro-economics is in order.  When the government needs money, they order the US Treasury to issue securities (bonds) which are sold to whomever wishes to buy them.  Many Americans buy them as they are a very secure form of investment, and quite inflation proof, albeit not typically large earners.  These bonds can also be purchased by financial institutions both here and abroad, as well as any other foreign interest as may desire them.  Thus assembling a comprehensive list of 'who the government owes money to' is not very useful to this discussion.  However, if you are really curious, here is an editorial on the topic .

This is pure semantics.  There are plenty of valid points to discuss here, lets not get sidetracked with terminology.

It's exactly this kind of hypocrisy (if it is, in fact, occurring as I have no information on the topic either way) that leads me to believe that we shouldn't be overseas shoveling our values and way of life over other peoples' culture.  

So by this you mean to say that we should go to the expense of capturing known felons just to let them run free to offend again?  Which side of the law are you arguing?

In California unemployment benefits are paid for by witholding a portion of the workers wage and placing it into escrow against the chance that they will claim it.  After a time (one year, maybe two?) the money reverts to the government.  In this case I'd have to say it's the Unemployment office that is leeching off the Californian worker for their own existence.

This argument has no validity.  It is indisputable that Bush is a warmonger.  I'm sure I don't have to recount the entire list of wars the man has initiated to prove this point.  Your argument that democrats are more likely to go to war than republicans is not relevant.

Okay, now here we have something to work with.  
I don't believe that any interim government is possible in Iraq as long as the US refuses to surrender control.  Currently we insist on dominating every decision made, and our efforts to stabilize the government have been toward the exact same flavor of 'stability' we've created in every other country we invaded... puppet governments.  Maybe the EU is right to be more concerned with protecting their interests than with electing some marionettes in Iraq.

As for the difficulties of reestablishing services within the country, why did you pick 5000?  Why not 5,000,000?  Are the Iraqi's too busy, lazy, stupid, barbaric to repair their own sewers or power lines?  For the sake of brevity I won't beat that horse any further.  I would like to know where you derived that number however.

Actually, what they were supposed to create was a new state for the displaced Palestinians.  Palestinians, evidently, haven't donated enough money to the election coffers of American politician however.  (Okay, cheap shot, I admit it)

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Old 09-17-2003, 09:36 AM   #58
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Puerto Rico. Florida. The entire Midwest. New England. Need more? And since this is the flames folder, I'll get picky: it's embassies, not embessies, and foreign, not foriegn. Nya.

I don't know about "most" unemployed, but I do know that I've been trying to find productive work for a couple of years now. Living in Connecticut, looking for work is a full time job, with no pay unless you happen to be lucky enough to qualify for unemployment compensation. Your tax dollars aren't paying for this. My prior employer is. A whopping $72 US dollars a week. Enough for groceries, but not enough to pay for the gas (at $1.90 per gallon) to get me to the supermarket. So I walk most of the time. When you get laid off from work due to cutbacks or the company moving their operations overseas, come back and tell us again how unemployed people are lazy whiners, hmm?

As for the rest, I didn't read it. I don't even know what this topic is about, since all flames are just sorta thrown in together as one big mishmosh comprising six pages of stuff. Those two points did scream at me to reply, however, and so I did just that.

Flame on, folks.
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Old 09-17-2003, 06:00 PM   #59
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Old 09-18-2003, 12:51 AM   #60
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Since the uneducated can not digest no more than a paragraph with large words in it, I will make my reply in two posts...and this is going to be fun because it seems stupidity has run rampant since some people here dont know how to read...here we go...

Malaclypse,

Since you decided you say I was misleading the people with shock-jock tactics, I decided to point out my example of some of the harsh treatment people in the Middle East get now and then by their own people since they have no freedom. No freedom like oh say, due process, civil rights, etc that people here in America take for granted. Over there, public stoning, beheading, summery executiuons..all a part of life. Dont believe me? The UN's Commitie on Human Rights had brought before them a decesion to investigate further into Iraq's human rights violations in  

In the same month, they were shown documentation by witnesses about

In July 1991, the UN said

Want more? has some interesting info over there. Oh..and yes, I know you'll point out some print about the US there, but those far outweigh the non-US ones. Like banning a single firecracker because Canada built a nuke.

As for going into Iraq..again..it was business unfinished. Had Clinton continued the momentum, there wouldnt have been a recent war in Iraq. There wouldnt be mass graves filled with innocents made by Iraqi's Republican Guard's  or dead Kurds because of nerve agents dropped on them. Of course, you'll probably say this is all moot.


If you want to be an Anarchist, then at least get your facts straight..the US is joining the WTO which is "a coalition of facist nations bent on world domination and bringing the freeman down" or something along that description. Depends on who you ask...but still..it's the WTO.

As for a resposen to that..####..I think I've discussed freedom enough..just scroll back and reread where the words freedom are because I'm tired of repeating myself to people how dont listen (or refuse to)

reply in 3 parts :
1. After reading my initial reply, even I thought I meant one thing..only meant 'whiners like you', never intended to call you a social parasite (unless you are) BUT therer are still social parasites out there that commit welfare fraud, etc and hide behind PC-dom and so called "rights" though I've never seen anywhere in the Constitution that says a woman can get paid for having 10 kids by the time she's 30 for a nice fat check for each. Of course, that's part of the oh-so-great social services system that liberals like to protect at any given moment.
2. I'm not a racist. I'm a realist. I personally dont give a frag if someone is from korea, canada, or mexico or Exampleton. IF you enter this country illegally it is against the law. Period. There is nothing racist about that comment. Deport them the first time caught. Second time caught, send them to a corporate owned prison where previous unemployed american workers now have jobs with benefits.As for politicians wanting to give illegals welfare checks, etc..guess you never heard of Proposition 182 that stopped this from happening. If people want into this country, then do it legally. Plain and simple. Besides, if I was racist, I wouldnt be here and would be over at some site like Stormfront.com or whereever.
3. I'm not a Republican..nor am I 2 faced..again..as I've said at least 4 times already..I only defended the current president because so many people have accused him of doing the same thing liberal presidents have done (some have done worse). If anything..I'm an independant-libertarian-neo-democratic-socialist.

I wont discuss the demonstartions because a) I dont watch Fox news either and b) if I have to describe the best way to encite a riot and show how it's being done in Iraq then I know you might need the picture version of Hooked on Phonics (which btw..you dont because unlike some other twit, you actually post some replies that make me think about my replies.Kudos..and NO I am not conceeding) Here is something to think about..if someone isnt in Organization A but does actions and views like said Organization and know about that organization, are they not by defination supporting it?

Well, as soon as everyone over there adheres to the Khartoum Resolutions, and Arafat eliminates the PLO (which he heads in case you forgot and also, in case you forgot, the PLO bombs pretty much anyone who isnt with them). Isreal is only defending itself.
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