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Old 06-19-2005, 04:37 PM   #141
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Two possibilities:

1) Vryce's position on derviative works is indefensible, and he knows it. He keeps silent because saying anything would just call attention to his plagiarism.

In this scenario, what is the problem with people calling him out as guilty? (And cowardly, to boot.) What is wrong with asking that he do the decent thing and restore credit to the people who generated that code?

2) Vryce has a reasonable explanation for why his game is not a derivative under US law, or that it is a derivative but it's not plagiarism, or something similar.

If this was the scenario, why would he keep silent? Wouldn't he want to clear his name, since people are stating well-researched claims that he's a plagiarist?

He has a posted answer, but it's clearly not compatible with the definition of a derivative work under US law. Maybe he's got some other explanation in mind. If so, shouldn't he post it?
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Old 06-19-2005, 07:14 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by
1) Vryce's position on derviative works is indefensible, and he knows it.  He keeps silent because saying anything would just call attention to his plagiarism.

In this scenario, what is the problem with people calling him out as guilty?  (And cowardly, to boot.)   What is wrong with asking that he do the decent thing and restore credit to the people who generated that code?
Well, if that's the scenario, you'd have no way of knowing about it, since you can't know that he knows his position is indefensible. There's also nothing wrong with calling him out as guilty if that's what you believe, but I mean, when do you drop it, considering it's not actually accomplished getting the credits put back, if indeed Medievia is guilty of code theft? 10 years is a long time to carry on over something that caused "the victims" very little damage of any sort and which "the victims" have long ago dropped as an issue.

So I mean, yeah, you can continue to post on forums asking that he do it, but since he's clearly not going to, the posts asking him to are just non-commercial spam in a way, if you see what I mean. I think it's healthy that the issue was discussed, but it's also been discussed quite to death with no change in the status quo.

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2) Vryce has a reasonable explanation for why his game is not a derivative under US law, or that it is a derivative but it's not plagiarism, or something similar.
You know, I think it's odd to focus on the law quite so much because the hatred for Medievia seems like a moral thing rather than a legal thing. Many people regularly speed, and that's clearly illegal and has -far- more serious potential consequences (killing people, etc) than not having the DIKU creators names on the login screen of a MUD. Of course, 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this is a lot of effort to put forth for such a minor thing when you could be spending your time trying to, say, shame speeders into slowing down. There are people out there right now, speeding all over the place. All over wherever it is you live. Right in your local neighborhood. Anyway, I know I break various laws regularly, and I don't care. In fact, just today on my motorcycle I passed numerous cars by crossing over the double yellow line, zipped along at well over the speed limit, and failed to signal that I was turning into my driveway. As I write this, I am relaxing with an illegal substance used purely for recreational purposes. The law doesn't get to dictate my or your morality.

On the other hand, if it's a moral thing, which it appears to be, then you have to recognize that this is hardly a black and white issue. I am -not- defending code theft (or the use of -any- IP without permission), but I don't think it's a stretch to make a moral argument that differs substantially from the technicalities of the definition of a derivative work under US law. I mean, intellectual property as a concept is a reasonably recent invention in terms of mass acceptance by the US, and parts of the world have no real concept of it in their moral structure. (Owning things, yes, owning ideas, no.) Are they wrong? I don't think so, though I would certainly use whatever tools the law makes available to me to go after anyone taking what I view as my stuff.

I just want to repeat: If Medievia did indeed engage in what they are accused of, I would certainly not be a fan of that kind of behavior. But, lots of people, including my immediate family and best friends, do things I don't approve of. Life would be pretty lonely if you tried to ostracize everyone who did something you disapproved of.

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If this was the scenario, why would he keep silent?  Wouldn't he want to clear his name, since people are stating well-researched claims that he's a plagiarist?
Well that one is easy. Who cares if you guys claim he's a plagiarist? What possible reason have you given him to care? It's been nothing but bile and rancor, which isn't a very good invitation to a rational discussion. Life's too short to care what people who can't really affect you think of you in general. (I'd make one crappy politician!

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He has a posted answer, but it's clearly not compatible with the definition of a derivative work under US law.  Maybe he's got some other explanation in mind.  If so, shouldn't he post it?
Why? I mean this in the nicest possible way: Who do you think you are that someone should come running to answer your questions? It'd be one thing if you were one of the DIKU authors, I'll grant, because they're the victims if what is alleged is true, though even then he could quite reasonably expect that they would contact him privately to deal with it. From his point of view though, why would he come running just because some random forum posters ask him to, especially when those forum posters have, in some cases, spent 10 years vilifying him. And in fact, at this point he probably dislikes some people so much for attacking him so repeatedly and viciously that the fact that he CAN ignore you with no consequences is probably quite enjoyable. Really, there's nothing to be gained for him by engaging with you guys on the issue at this point, especially because I'm sure he knows that no matter what he says, some posters will use it as a reason to attack him more.

--matt
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Old 06-19-2005, 09:07 PM   #143
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Maybe the reason Vryce doesn't answer is because he doesn't feel like it.  What do you want him to say?  I for one am glad he doesn't say anything, I couldn't care less.  At least we won't end up with a Derek Smart on our hands.  And frankly, I don't think he's going to be comin out here to say something anytime soon.  Him admitting he stole codebase would be like an idiot admitting he was stupid, it just doesn't happen.  Who's the last murderer you know who plead guilty? (No, I'm not comparing Vryce to an idiot or a murderer)
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Old 06-20-2005, 12:18 AM   #144
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Coulda swore this thread was dead.... *cough*

Hate to say it, but logos is actually right... somehow. No matter how many people post about it on these forums or others, its not gonna affect medievia or any of their people at all. Really, all this is doing is advertising for them, as im sure has already been said. Think of them as gods, and you are just mortals, whining to the heavens. Do they really care?

Truthfully, are we MU* players even affected by whether or not they are here? Does it even make a difference on our daily lives if they DID steal some code? I don't think its worth all this effort for nothing.

I'm so gonna get flamed....
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Old 06-20-2005, 03:29 AM   #145
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Easy solution:

If you agree with Medievia's actions and don't have a problem with others (ab)using code, you should make your own code fully available to the entire community. If you're unwilling to do that, then you should reconsider your hypocrisy and quit defending those thieves.

There. Enough said.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:21 AM   #146
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the_logos June 19 2005,19:14
Quote:
Originally Posted by
So I mean, yeah, you can continue to post on forums asking that he do it, but since he's clearly not going to, the posts asking him to are just non-commercial spam in a way, if you see what I mean. I think it's healthy that the issue was discussed, but it's also been discussed quite to death with no change in the status quo.
It did stop Soleil from spamming the boards with her plugs about Medievia, which was one of the goals. Now we just need you to stop writing these lengthy rants to their defense, which just fuel the flames.

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Anyway, I know I break various laws regularly, and I don't care. In fact, just today on my motorcycle I passed numerous cars by crossing over the double yellow line, zipped along at well over the speed limit, and failed to signal that I was turning into my driveway. As I write this, I am relaxing with an illegal substance used purely for recreational purposes. The law doesn't get to dictate my or your morality.

And I still would like to know how come Medievia suddenly disappeared from the Mudmagic listing after Soleil more or less admitted to the theft, with about the same arguments that you use about why you like to break various laws yourself in your post.
Does Kyndig monitor the TMS boards? Or is it just coincidence?
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Old 06-20-2005, 01:39 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by
It did stop Soleil from spamming the boards with her plugs about Medievia, which was one of the goals. Now we just need you to stop writing these lengthy rants to their defense, which just fuel the flames.
Or, you could just stop flaming them. *gasp*


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And I still would like to know how come Medievia suddenly disappeared from the Mudmagic listing after Soleil more or less admitted to the theft, with about the same arguments that you use about why you like to break various laws yourself in your post.
Does Kyndig monitor the TMS boards? Or is it just coincidence?
Why post here asking that? Why not just mail Kyndig or post on Mudmagic asking him?

--matt
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Old 06-20-2005, 01:43 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ June 20 2005,03:29)
Easy solution:

If you agree with Medievia's actions and don't have a problem with others (ab)using code, you should make your own code fully available to the entire community.  If you're unwilling to do that, then you should reconsider your hypocrisy and quit defending those thieves.
Who are you talking to here? I'm assuming it's not me, as I specifically said that I would never defend code-theft. Of course, I'd also never defend stealing any sort of IP, and there's plenty of that going on in many MUDs on TMS. On the other hand, I've also come to feel that if the IP owners don't feel harmed enough to do anything about it (diku, star wars, etc) then why should I care?

Your post just seemed to come out of nowhere and I'm wondering who it is actually directed to. I certainly would have a problem with people using my code, because we could suffer actual significant harm from it. People could lose their jobs, be unable to pay their mortgages, etc. If, on the other hand, I suffered only mild ego harm, like the DIKU authors did, then I doubt I'd care very much....which is pretty much the stance the DIKU authors seem to have taken, since they dropped the issue years ago.

--matt
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Old 06-20-2005, 09:43 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ June 20 2005,13:43)
Your post just seemed to come out of nowhere....
Chalk it up to being sick of seeing this topic on the forums featuring rationalizations to defend unethical and immoral acts.

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Originally Posted by
Who are you talking to here? I'm assuming it's not me, as I specifically said that I would never defend code-theft...On the other hand, I've also come to feel that if the IP owners don't feel harmed enough to do anything about it (diku, star wars, etc) then why should I care?
Do you approve of Medievia's actions?  Yes or no.  Same goes for the others that made up excuses as to why Medievia shouldn't be held accountable by whatever means possible for their act of theft.

Anyone that doesn't believe that taking something that isn't yours and claiming it as your own when you are aware of to whom ownership belongs as well as their will regarding it.  We all know who created the DIKU code and we know their conditions for its use.  That known, Medievia chose to steal.  Making excuses for people who deliberately committed an immoral act leaves a person guilty of approving of such an act.

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I certainly would have a problem with people using my code, because we could suffer actual significant harm from it.
Harm is harm, and committing an act against another when you know they do not approve of that act is just as immoral regardless of the degree of harm it causes.  To put it only in economic terms just shows that you approve of theft except under specific conditions.  That's the same as saying you oppose murder but approve of attempted murder as long as it fails and no injury occured.

So, back to my question:  do you approve of what Medievia did? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:19 PM   #150
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I'll answer your question myself: No I don't approve of it, but I just don't care anymore.  There's nothing I can do about it.  I just want to stop talking about Medievia.  All these mindless drones who say "M3DI3VIA DIDN'T ST3AL CODE BECAUSE I'M IGN0R4NT!!!1R0FLMAOLOO00OLLLLLLLLL!!!11" are drawn to discussions like this.  Perhaps, like a moth and a lamp, if you turn off the lamp the moth goes wherever it was going.  So maybe if we stopped talking about Medievia, the mindless drones will go away.  After all, if a kid with ADD gets bored, he will go run with scissors or something.
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:31 PM   #151
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So thats how you get rid of ADD kids....
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:29 PM   #152
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Wow, It took me parts of three days to read all the posts on this subject.
Let me start out by saying I am nobody, I do not know law. or licensing or spelling or proper ways to construct a post.
I am a mudder. Ive mudded for atleast 7yrs now. I do not own or IMP or IMM any mud past or present . I am a player.
Let me say first of all ive never played Medival or whatever , I wouldnt pay to play. I play a mud that had its code stolen is as close As I can get to knowing anything about any of this.
The only reason I even came here was to vote for the mud that I play (shameless plug) Abandoned Realms.
Then I started read all of this. Here are my insignificat comments
I stopped reading Logos posts about half way thru because I found him very hard to read without wanting to reach thru my moniter and slap the smirk off his face.
As soon as I read that Soilie or whatever was married to Vyrce I stopped reading hers as well. When someone as full of S*** as her doenst know or want to say what her Husband and BOSS is or is not doing ,.In my world thats a liar.
If Its obvious to me that Medivial is stolen . then its stolen, Walks like a duck Quacks like a duck etc etc.
I do wonder why its allowed to advertise here and not just about any other voting sites though. Easy enough to guess . Money.
Why wouldnt they just say Ok Fine we all know its Diku put and put the credits back. Once again ., Money ,
Lastly i would like to appoligize for all my spelling ,grammer and strutual errors of this post and thank anyone that got this far into my post.

Did I mention Abandoned Realms is the most balanced RP/PK mud ive ever played? *wink* Thanks again
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:42 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (viggs @ June 22 2005,22:29)
I stopped reading Logos posts about half way thru because I found him very hard to read without wanting to reach thru my moniter and slap the smirk off his face.
We all feel like that, but he's really not that bad if you talk to him on the forum about non-mud related stuff.
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:48 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Delerak @ June 06 2005,18:36)
Can you people derail some more?
I think they could, and have, this train is already so derailed it has crashed into a giant nuclear power plant.  Right now we're at the point where we are fighting a post-apocalyptic warlord for the last source of fuel in a bombed out desert wasteland.
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:51 PM   #155
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Quote:
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He knows I visit here frequently and usually doesn't understand why I even take part.  If you were to email him, you would get a response.  Most likely not something you want to read or that you will like reading, but he simply does not have the time to spend on the forums.  He does not care about being pro-active.
This sounded like the management team of Medievia would respond to an email, about the questions that we have had.  As of yet, more then what 15 days?  There has been no reply?

Any Advice Soliel, on how to get a reply from Vyrce, about our questions?
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:48 PM   #156
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Seems to me that if he didn't respond by now, he's not going to respond. As I think I mentioned before, he doesn't feel he needs to answer to the posters here at this forum. Sorry to disappoint you.

I think the_logos summed it up rather nicely:

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Originally Posted by
Why? I mean this in the nicest possible way: Who do you think you are that someone should come running to answer your questions? It'd be one thing if you were one of the DIKU authors, I'll grant, because they're the victims if what is alleged is true, though even then he could quite reasonably expect that they would contact him privately to deal with it. From his point of view though, why would he come running just because some random forum posters ask him to, especially when those forum posters have, in some cases, spent 10 years vilifying him. And in fact, at this point he probably dislikes some people so much for attacking him so repeatedly and viciously that the fact that he CAN ignore you with no consequences is probably quite enjoyable. Really, there's nothing to be gained for him by engaging with you guys on the issue at this point, especially because I'm sure he knows that no matter what he says, some posters will use it as a reason to attack him more.
So, shrug, looks like you are going to have to do with no answers this time around.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:23 PM   #157
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So in addition to being a thief, Vryce is a coward too.

I notice that the_logos, Threshold, et al have yet to respond with a simple "yes" or "no" as to whether or not they agree with Medievia's unethical behavior. I'll make it even easier for them then. If you don't agree, simply say "No." If you do agree and condone theft and lies, simply remain silent as you already have and we'll all get the point and toss cowardice onto the list.

I can't help but wonder though. Perhaps those that have defended Medievia have also abused the DIKU license too. If they lack the integrity to understand or admit that Medievia's behavior was wrong, what's to say they have the integrity not to commit the same acts? Hmmmm....

There's something to think about.

Take care,

Jason
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:33 PM   #158
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Id be very surprised if IRE stole any code... As a matter of fact, I know its impossible. You can tell, by the way their games play. Like no other mu* I've played so far.
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:40 PM   #159
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Yes, IRE uses a different client.  It's very different from other MUDs, and while I don't like their games, I don't believe they have stolen any code.  Claiming that Threshold and Matt have stolen code with no evidence aside from pure speculation to back it up is bordering on paranoia.  I don't actually remember Matt defending Medievia's code theft, so I doubt he has ever stolen DIKU. I mean, sure, he hasn't exactly admitted that Medievia stole code, but he never said "I support Medievia's code theft."
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Old 06-23-2005, 08:35 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (prof1515 @ June 23 2005,16:23)
I notice that the_logos, Threshold, et al have yet to respond with a simple "yes" or "no" as to whether or not they agree with Medievia's unethical behavior. I'll make it even easier for them then. If you don't agree, simply say "No." If you do agree and condone theft and lies, simply remain silent as you already have and we'll all get the point and toss cowardice onto the list.
Could you be any more of an unethical jerk?

By what twisted logic do you conclude I should have to respond to your pointless questions?

The fact that I have not participated in this utterly useless thread is certainly none of your business. I have not been involved in any way with this issue for years. If you want to know what I had to say about it before that, do some research. Get some help from the stalkers here who masturbate to my entire usenet posting history.

Furthermore, where do you get off posing questions that compel someone to answer or else you decide what their answer is for them?

Sounds a lot like the old loaded question "Yes or no: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

Your entire argument here is one of ethics, and then you engage in grossly unethical behavior yourself. Nice work, hypocrite.
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