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Old 05-03-2006, 09:59 AM   #201
Spoke
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Threshold wrote:
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You still don't get it.

Software Design is based on logic, and is not the result of thousands of years of cases that piled upon and contradicted each other. It is also not deliberately designed to be obscure. It is quite simple for someone to teach themself how to design software, as it is a relatively simple and straightforward discipline (especially when compared to the law).

The Law is not based on logic much of the time, it IS the product of thousands of years of cases piling on top of each other (often contradicting each other), and it is also (very often) written to be deliberately obscure (so lawyers can maintain their utility). The law is filled with elements that defy logic due to a desire to fulfill a political or public policy purpose.

Your comparison is absolutely absurd and is a very clear example of how little you know about the law. The fact that you even try to compare software design to legal analysis makes ANY legal analysis you do dubious at best.
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Your comparison is absolutely absurd and is a very clear example of how little you know about software design. The fact that you even try to compare software design to legal analysis in these terms makes ANY talking you do dubious at best.

A lot of what you're saying about software design is true in theory, but not in any way relating to any project in the real world. (Much like the law, in theory, is meant to generally make things better for people and not, for example, meant in parts to guarantee lawyers jobs.) KaVir may be talking about something he doesn't have professional experience with, but you're not doing any better.

I'm sure you have some level of exposure to software development that makes you think you know what you're talking about. You don't have any idea.

I personally know at least half a dozen people who were in college with me as physics and math students who live of designing software and applications. None of them had a full CE or Software Design education, most did not have anything beyond basic C/C++ clases required of all students.

The thing is, all these people taught themselves how to code in all the other languages they program in, one of them has worked for 3 multinationals already as regional head of Computer Design division.

So, I think Threshold's example was far from ridiculous or idiotic, specially since the person to first use the annalogy was KaViR not him.
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:33 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Spoke @ May 03 2006,10:59)
I personally know at least half a dozen people who were in college with me as physics and math students who live of designing software and applications. None of them had a full CE or Software Design education, most did not have anything beyond basic C/C++ clases required of all students.
My first paid job on leaving college was as a welfare rights advisor and advocate. Despite having no formal legal training I was quickly working directly with legislation to prepare appeals and then presenting them before legal tribunals. It certainly wasn't easy, but I managed just fine and was regarded as a successful advocate by other legal professionals.

My point is that individual examples don't really do much to sway the argument either way. The 'Software Design vs. The Law' complexity argument is completely pointless. Who can say? Who really cares? It's just another distraction for KaVir and Threshold to flame each other over...
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:56 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aardwolf @ May 03 2006,08:38)
I tried to stay out of this, but Soleil really gets my back up comparing Aardwolf to Medievia. First off, full disclosure, we break the *spirit* of the license to fund ourselves. Nobody likes it, it is a necessary evil and within another 6-12 months will be a non-issue.
It is not a necessary evil. We uphold the letter of the DIKU license as well as the expressed intent of the DIKU team regarding how they wish it to work. We cover our expenses with voluntary donations and/or the purchase of out-of-game merchandise.

I think you're correct in saying that you shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as Medievia, because you're working with Hans and acknowledging the team's contributions as you do so. <moderator edited stuff out here.>
It's a respectful way to manage the transition from a DIKU-base game to one that will allow you to continue operating as a pay-for-perks game. But no one forced your hand to take things in that direction-- other solutions exist, and it's disingenuous to say it was "necessary".
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Old 05-03-2006, 11:12 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (cron0s @ May 03 2006,10:33)
My point is that individual examples don't really do much to sway the argument either way. The 'Software Design vs. The Law' complexity argument is completely pointless. Who can say? Who really cares? It's just another distraction for KaVir and Threshold to flame each other over...
I will concede as I totally agree with you here. I was thinking on removing the post but waited too long .

Regarding the Diku license, I have a question.

This
Quote:
Originally Posted by
You may under no circumstances make profit on *ANY* part of DikuMud in
any possible way. You may under no circumstances charge money for
distributing any part of dikumud - this includes the usual $5 charge
for "sending the disk" or "just for the disk" etc.
By breaking these rules you violate the agreement between us and the
University, and hence will be sued.
is one of the portions of the license that brings about more discussion, my specific question is: If making profit has been interpreted as giving out virtual benefits in exchange of money, could a MUD that exchanges money for a sheet with extra information of your character's gear after it dies be considered to be in a similar situation?

My question has to be understood in a word-meaning context, not in a game context. I do not really care if the virtual good do or do not have impact on the game-line, all I am suggesting is there IS an exchange of something virtual related directly to the game and therefore to Diku (I may have misunderstood what a derivative work is but I think I might be applying the concept correctly).

Another question is, if everytime I donate to an specific organization (say red cross) I get an sticker that I can put on my car or my t-shirt, and I have always gotten it when I donate money, am I buying an expensive sticker every time I donate for the price I wish to buy it for or am I donating the money?

What if I got a small pocket type sticker if I donated under $20 but got a car sticker when I donated over that? would that be different?

(I hope people see the comparisonal relevance of the questions, but if for some reason the comparision is off, point it out and answer the valid points asked please).
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Old 05-03-2006, 12:56 PM   #205
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Sorry about the recent lack of moderation. I haven't been on this thread for a couple of days. I've gone through and moderated the heck out of the last few pages, deleting some posts, editing insults or over-the-top invective out of others. I think the thrust of the arguments is still there in any case.

--matt
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:03 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Spoke @ May 03 2006,12:12)
is one of the portions of the license that brings about more discussion, my specific question is: If making profit has been interpreted as giving out virtual benefits in exchange of money, could a MUD that exchanges money for a sheet with extra information of your character's gear after it dies be considered to be in a similar situation?

My question has to be understood in a word-meaning context, not in a game context. I do not really care if the virtual good do or do not have impact on the game-line, all I am suggesting is there IS an exchange of something virtual related directly to the game and therefore to Diku (I may have misunderstood what a derivative work is but I think I might be applying the concept correctly).

Another question is, if everytime I donate to an specific organization (say red cross) I get an sticker that I can put on my car or my t-shirt, and I have always gotten it when I donate money, am I buying an expensive sticker every time I donate for the price I wish to buy it for or am I donating the money?

What if I got a small pocket type sticker if I donated under $20 but got a car sticker when I donated over that? would that be different?

(I hope people see the comparisonal relevance of the questions, but if for some reason the comparision is off, point it out and answer the valid points asked please).
Well, making a profit has not been interpreted as giving out virtual benefits in exchange of money. Generating revenue is not profit.

I think you're right though: If you assumed it was profit (again, I and, as far as I'm aware, all tax law, rejects the idea that simple revenue = profit) there'd be no difference between selling a virtual sword (that isn't part of DIKU, but part of your code) and selling a sticker or a character sheet. There's a difference in terms of in-game impact, but the DIKU license doesn't mention in-game impact nor does it imply that it's at all concerned with the distinction, so it's hard to see how that's relevant.

--matt
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:45 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 03 2006,20:03)
If you assumed it was profit (again, I and, as far as I'm aware, all tax law, rejects the idea that simple revenue = profit) there'd be no difference between selling a virtual sword (that isn't part of DIKU, but part of your code) and selling a sticker or a character sheet. There's a difference in terms of in-game impact, but the DIKU license doesn't mention in-game impact nor does it imply that it's at all concerned with the distinction, so it's hard to see how that's relevant.
I know this has been discussed before, and I'm pretty sure I remember you disagreeing with it, but this is the reasoning that is generally applied to the situation:

Stickers, t-shirts, mugs, and other things completely outside of the game do not infringe the Diku copyright, and thus they fall outside the scope of the licence (unless they've got Diku code printed on them or something equally silly). Obviously you could still have problems if your theme infringes on another copyrighted work (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc).

By the same reasoning, I could sell you the data file for a virtual sword which I'd created, and you could then use that data on your own mud. I could even sell you the entire area file (assuming I'd written it all myself). Once again, if the area was based on another copyrighted work, there could be problems, although these wouldn't be Diku-related.

But selling a virtual item within the game itself assigns it a value separate from that of the raw data or creative effort involved. And that value is something specific to the mud in which the item exists. The reasoning, therefore, is that you're selling something of value within the game itself.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:10 PM   #208
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In a similar vein to what KaVir mentions, DIKU owners can sell advertising on their websites, copyright their logos, contents, and images, incorporate themselves as nonprofits, etc. The changes we made (like all our areas) belong to us and fall under our own copyrights.

ROM's author once summarized the license as "Make no financial gains from this, and give credit where it is due." We follow that closely-- Carrion Fields pockets none of the donations or proceeds from merchandise, and routes it all into maintaining and upgrading the equipment needed to run it.
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:05 PM   #209
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If you trust that non-disclosure to be binding enough to let your volunteers see the code, why not have an independant third party once and for all end the debate?
I've answered this before.  Vryce and the rest of our god staff do not care about this issue.   Thousands of Medievia players do not care about this issue.  The DIKU authors do not care about this issue.  The only people who care about this issue are the ones posting to this thread and probably a few others who frequent TMC.  Why in the world should we turn our code over for inspection to please a handful of other MUD admins that have been on this tired crusade for over 10 years?  We don't care about pleasing you.  We would much rather spend our time pleasing our players by developing and expanding Medievia.
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Old 05-03-2006, 03:25 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Soleil @ May 03 2006,16:05)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
If you trust that non-disclosure to be binding enough to let your volunteers see the code, why not have an independant third party once and for all end the debate?
I've answered this before.  Vryce and the rest of our god staff do not care about this issue.   Thousands of Medievia players do not care about this issue.  The DIKU authors do not care about this issue.  The only people who care about this issue are the ones posting to this thread and probably a few others who frequent TMC.  Why in the world should we turn our code over for inspection to please a handful of other MUD admins that have been on this tired crusade for over 10 years?  We don't care about pleasing you.  We would much rather spend our time pleasing our players by developing and expanding Medievia.
"I don't care" usually translates to actions like, "sure, go ahead," rather than signing non-disclosure agreements. Drawing up contracts is generally a good sign someone means business about something.


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Old 05-03-2006, 04:05 PM   #211
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Soleil @ May 03 2006,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vryce and the rest of our god staff do not care about this issue. Thousands of Medievia players do not care about this issue. The DIKU authors do not care about this issue. The only people who care about this issue are the ones posting to this thread and probably a few others who frequent TMC. Why in the world should we turn our code over for inspection to please a handful of other MUD admins that have been on this tired crusade for over 10 years? We don't care about pleasing you.
If you don't care about the community, why are you still posting on this board? Why don't you just go away? That too would put an end to the flames.
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:23 PM   #212
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Drawing up contracts is generally a good sign someone means business about something.
Don't mistake me, we CARE about Medievia's code. We don't care about the crap that 10 people on these forums harp over year after year.
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:27 PM   #213
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If you don't care about the community, why are you still posting on this board? Why don't you just go away? That too would put an end to the flames.
I know I've said this before but I like posting on these boards. I like reading them and responding and so forth. Plus I'm the only one from Medievia who comes to this site and I figure someone should read the MUD site forums regularly. Call it part of my Mediedvia job so to speak. In the end though it's intellectually engaging and good fun.

And btw, I'm not the one who starts these threads.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:31 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Don't mistake me, we CARE about Medievia's code. We don't care about the crap that 10 people on these forums harp over year after year.

I always enjoy, ironically, this argument. There are only so many active forum posters. Those that do post frequently can be compared via percentages on their opinions on Medievia's ethics/running of its MUD. Even if it is only 20-30ish posters who typically have commented on Medievia, a lot more forum users read these forums. Moreover, many of the most active forum users here are admins of their own MUDs(many of them large MUDs), and assuredly their opinion of Medievia is fed back inevitably into their own games via forums and chat channels and general consensus.

I have to wonder howmuch larger Medievia would be if it just played nice with the rest of its community a little. I guess we'll never know, though - I've read Vryce's conversations with other staff members and such, via AOL Instant Messenger, and it seems very unlikely that he'd be willing to make even the smallest of concessions to try to make peace with the rest of the community.

Don't downplay the opinions of a couple dozen people, when those people effect a much larger community's point-of-view.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:36 PM   #215
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I've read Vryce's conversations with other staff members and such, via AOL Instant Messenger,
Vryce doesn't use AOL Instant Messenger. This I know for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Don't downplay the opinions of a couple dozen people, when those people effect a much larger community's point-of-view.
And don't make the 'community' out to be quite larger than it really is. Medievia itself has a few thousand players. I would be pretty secure in my assumption of less than 5% of our players, if that, visit this forum and read it. It's of course quite possible that other games get more of their players here than others, but quite frankly, I don't believe the majority of the 'community' give two craps about this issue I bet you would be hard pressed to come up with even 100 people. We have 2- 3 times that many logged into Medievia most of the time.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:44 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (the_logos @ May 04 2006,00:03)
Well, making a profit has not been interpreted as giving out virtual benefits in exchange of money. Generating revenue is not profit.
Again I repeat, no-one but you thinks this a valid point. You can argue it until you're blue, you'll just be ignored for the most part. If you think this is a valid argument towards those who defend the DIKU license, you're completely missing their point.
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:54 PM   #217
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Sol - if it wasn't AIM, it was some sort of similar messenger; it was posted in the forums, so it wasn't some secret that I read it.

---

The community is very large, Sol - if I thought it would make a difference, I could easily enough send a petition out to various MUDs and forums and get a large amount of people to sign a form saying that they do care about the DIKU Licensing issue and do not agree with Medievia's breaking of it.

If I did that, though, would it change anything? If I got enough people to sign, would you credit the originators of your MUD's code-base? Would you co-operate with the rest of the community? I have the feeling the answer is no, but correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:25 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (DonathinFrye @ May 04 2006,00:54)
Sol - if it wasn't AIM, it was some sort of similar messenger; it was posted in the forums, so it wasn't some secret that I read it.
If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was an in-game channel of some sort (hero talk, or immortal chat, or something similar).
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Old 05-03-2006, 06:39 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by (KaVir @ May 03 2006,04:22)
It seems pretty apparent that many people don't like the way you present your posts either. Do you think we should have the right to force you to show humility and professionalism in your posts?
And by "many" you mean 3 people. Looks like you're using the same math as you use to add up your "mud community" support.

And please go back and read my posts. I never said you had to be a professional to DISCUSS an issue. I said when it comes to an issue like the law, a non-professional shouldn't speak with absolute certainty just because they ran a few google searches. That's irresponsible and totally destroys their credibility.
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:40 PM   #220
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From a hosting perspective, if someone wrote to the co-location site that said game was doing something illegal (i.e. license violations, etc), I pretty much would think that co-lo site would put a block on the game server access (both physical and net-connection wise) until the problem is resolved rather than face legal or public/community confontation against the co-lo site for supporting such a so-called business entity.

Just my $0.02 worth.

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