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Old 12-03-2004, 04:47 AM   #101
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Angie; Dec. 02 2004,18:28
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You can use my story if you want - I'm just not sure whether a non-mudder can even understand it...
That's the point of the whole venture; to make people understand the nature of text muds. We'd have to start out with some explanations about that of course, and make the explanations as funny as possible.

But thanks for the offer, your story is just perfect for what I had in mind...

Any more takers? Iluvatar? Brody? Jazuela? Anyone else?*poke* *nudge*
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Old 12-03-2004, 03:07 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 03 2004,03:47)
That's the point of the whole venture; to make people understand the nature of text muds. We'd have to start out with some explanations about that of course, and make the explanations as funny as possible.
While it's well-intentioned, I can't say I see a written story showing anyone the nature of text MUDs. I've never found that anyone understands the nature of text MUDs without sitting down and playing them. The idea of a real-time world being represented in text is so foreign to most people. Of course, the stories may get a few people interested enough to sit down and try out text MUDs, which would be good.
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Old 12-03-2004, 03:27 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by (the_logos @ Dec. 03 2004,14:07)
While it's well-intentioned, I can't say I see a written story showing anyone the nature of text MUDs. I've never found that anyone understands the nature of text MUDs without sitting down and playing them. ...
You may be right on this point, but this is also true for almost any product you learn-of through adverticing, until you try it, it is all about what the add had to show.

If I remember right, your original intention when you started the thread was to somehow target people who did not know yet about text games, people who were not already hooked in one of the many existing muds. The whole idea of having people writting stories and somehow adding in some "mud-spice" sounds like a good way to achieve it. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that what was important about adds was catching people's attention long enough for them to think about what is being told to them. If you give someone a good story they can enjoy, and then put the story in a MUD context somehow (which Molly or the others would have to figure out anyway ) you can achieve this effect, and as you said, maybe have some of this people to try at least one MUD.

The important thing, I believe, is that after you catch one person outside the usual pool of people who mud, you will get the usual process of him/her telling his/her friends, family and others about it, and the ancient process of player adverticing will begin anew. Just keep in mind, most of those posting here at some point were told that those colored lines filling someone's screen were not a computer research program or part of someone's work, and we were amazed too at the idea of a text game ... and here we are, and over the years we have lured many into this exciting hobby (or bussiness ) so, lets hook one or two, and let the process begin its natural course
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Old 12-03-2004, 05:31 PM   #104
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Couple of points:
-First I think many of us (myself included) are possibly a bit guilty of pushing off MUDs as too "foreign" or difficult for "normal" people, which means we need to pay special attention to advertising it in special ways to them. While I still haven't completely convinced myself of this NOT being true, I think it would be worthwhile to play devil's advocate with the notion.
The first computer game made was a text based game that, except for the multiplayer environment, bears a striking resemblance to the style of most text based MUDs out there (although I think we can agree that while they may LOOK like "Zork" or one if it's counterparts on the surface, it's better to equate "Zork," the 10mm Hydra viridissima, to it's current MUD brother, the 10m long fifty headed Hydra). The game of course had many single player variants. So many that, I'd be willing to bet that many people who spent their adolescence or teenager years during either the 80's or the 90's, and used one of many different computer types that were commercially active, can recall playing (and probably enjoying) either “Zork”, or a variant of it. True, I’m focusing in again on a smaller group of people (“…and used [a] … computer…”) which certainly was no where near the extent we have today, but I’ve personally been pretty darned surprised at the people I’ve found that used to play such games, and even those that used to play multiplayer text based games (not necessarily MUDs however) on the old acoustically coupled modems. I’m also (although less so as I’ve found more and more) surprised at the number of people (younger people then the afore-mentioned) who have in fact heard of and even played MUDs before in semi-recent times. The excuses for quitting are usually the same of course: “not enough time… I was too addicted… everything else in my life screeched to a halt…”
Really, from personal experience, the only large groups of people I’ve found that played or at least seen a MUD before, are those of the “new” generation (those that are teenagers now--you know, the ones that are most apt to become problem players for a while before they get bored). Interestingly enough, this generation is the most computer heavy generation of any so far, with strong focus on the Internet, and more importantly, games. The games they’re used to seeing ARE the flashy new games with huge intricate engines, massive attention to graphical detail and which tend to favor a short reaction time over an imaginative or quick thinking brain. These, although I’ve managed to pull a few in myself, tend not to be the most creative players. They also almost never have seen or heard of MUDs before. They might, in turn, not be the best people to focus on.
If the people we focus on are those that already are aware of MUDs, then what’s the point in advertising right? Well… I don’t think we can say that every person that has heard of a MUD is an ex-MUDder him or herself. A campaign for reintroduction of these people into the text-based genre may be advantageous. Starting with those who are most apt to jump ship in terms of time availability--college students.
But an overall reintroduction campaign I think might be worthwhile. It just needs to present to them both tasty morsels of MUDding that they now miss and can still get excited about, as well as presenting them with recent changes which take care of those problems they finally decided to bail out because of (as mentioned earlier by someone else, too much Rping, or too much H&S; not enough of a balanced fun, mix, or even alternate activities to both). It might also be worthwhile to tell them that they don’t NEED to spend every waking moment of their lives on the game anymore. With the mixed pay/free MUDs out there, money can be supplemented for time in terms of “getting somewhere” in the MUD world (although I understand and respect that some people here might not agree with that method of administration). Another option: with so many other styles of MUDs out there, I’m pretty sure (although I haven’t looked) that there exists MUDs that don’t require lots of time to play so much, as just a place to stop by when you have time and kick back for a few minutes or an hour, and yet STILL have fun, and maybe even still get somewhere because of quality playing during those few minutes.

-Second point (the first one started turning into a rant. I figured I probably should divide it up before I find myself with only one point). Spoke restates a great point; the best way of “advertising” is through word of mouth. Or at the very least, it’s been the mainstay of MUD advertising as I’ve seen it. It’s how I got into it probably closing in on 10 years ago now... I’ve honestly lost count… 10 doesn’t seem right, but I think only because it makes me seem older then I want to admit to myself. Either way, wherever I’ve been, the primary means of “advertising” the MUD was to get players to mention it to people they knew; friends, family members, online acquaintances, ect. I can’t say that they achieved earth-shattering results of course—there’s many reason for that I think—but I know it does work, as I’m a product of it working.

-Third point. This isn’t really a point I don’t think. In fact, I’m not sure any of these could be considered “points.” More like crappy advice. At any rate… posting “MUD Stories” is not a bad idea at all. But I’d suggest posting a mix of them. Most that I’ve heard mentioned are humorous ones. I’d suggest mixing those with tragic ones, violent ones, and all sorts of different kinds. Humor is an attractive device, but if you present nothing but humor, you might find people merely taking what you’re presenting as a joke. That and as great as the humor can be in MUDs (especially the ironies involved in some of your more run of the mill-MUDs, or those involved in H&S MUDs [the “good” aligned elf slaughtering eliminating whole populations of people just to gain a level]), the way we can spin some more tragic tales in can provide even more impact. The story that got me MUDing wasn’t necessarily a funny one (although I could find humor in it as I’m sure many others could) was one on a standard DIKU H&S variant: the protagonist was working with others in a clan. The antagonist stole something from him or some such. Either way it started a bit of a clan war. It wind down to him walking into the cathedral (I’m sure many of you know which I’m talking about) where the antagonist was sleeping, dragging him out by his collar, and hacking him apart there on the steps. In fact, this story is so generic that I’d be willing to bet half of us have been on both sides of that story multiple times. But it hooked me. The intrigue of being able to work WITH other people AGAINST other people in such an environment, even one with such loose RP as a H&S, was attractive, with no intended humor involved really.

I think I’m out of points but for those who think I write too much to get my point across (an acceptable opinion) here’s a condensed version:
1) Don’t necessarily bank on the idea that we’re an isolated group of gamers, surrounded by a larger group of generic gamers that haven’t ever heard of MUDs, and requires them to be explained. Many people KNOW MUDs are out there. Others that don’t, don’t necessarily need them explained, or need to understand them, in order to get them hooked.
2) “Networking,” although I find it personally abhorred when job searching, is effective in spreading the word of MUDs, as “proven” by most player’s histories.
3) Don’t focus on one aspect of MUDs. They’re too complex to stop there. Humor is great, but there’s a lot more then can be presented in a MUD-story format, just or maybe even more, effectively.
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:49 AM   #105
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The_logos; Dec. 03 2004,14,07
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While it's well-intentioned, I can't say I see a written story showing anyone the nature of text MUDs. I've never found that anyone understands the nature of text MUDs without sitting down and playing them.
Thanks for the condescending pat on the head.

Not that I ever expected me and the_logos to agree about anything in any case; our personal values are just too far apart for that.

My own opinion is, that a wellwritten story has a much better chance of swowing the nature of text muds than any advertisement, mostly because it is longer and more in depth than any advert could be. I also happen to think that publishing a number of good mudrelated stories is a lot better way to promote textmuds, than finding 'taboo/edgy things to offer and daring to do it to draw attention'. As Brody so aptly put it: 'if the only way to get publicity from the mainstream game magazines is to push the envelope of cultural mores ... I dunno if that's the way we want to go to promote the genre as a whole.'   … After all, a large part of our players are minors. If we as Mud owners don't follow some minimum standards of ethic and moral, what example will that set to the kids?

For those of you that did like the idea, here is some more food for thought:

Tezcatlipoca makes a lot of valuable points, above all to focus on all the various aspects that muds can provide, from the tragic or traumatic to the humouristic and bizarre. And the stories - especially if written by several different people - have the potential of doing just that. This is why it is so important to engage several different writers in this project. I tend to focus on the funny anacronisms and the bizarre side effects myself, because I always found that part of muds particularly entertaining. Even bugs or badly written zones can be hilarious at times...

Other writers, particularly from heavy RP muds, will most likely focus on the more or less deep, dark and tangled plots set up and carried out by the players or gamemasters. What I particularly liked about Angie's story was that is showed both sides of the coin - the hardcore roleplayer and the powerlevelling hack'n'slash freaks. The clash just was too funny.

(And come to think about that, there was another story along the same lines, posted in the Mud Humour Forum here some while ago, although I cannot find the link to it now. Perhaps someone else remembers? It was the tale about two ardent roleplayers playing the roles of Frodo and Sam in a Tolkien based mud, and their encounter with a bunch of powerplaying twinks near Minas Tirith... Does anyone remember who wrote it?)

Still, as Tezcatlipoca pointed out, we need to show all the sides of muds; the mob-bashing and levelling, the exploring and gathering of equipment, the learning of trades and crafts, the questing and solving of puzzles, the plots and the roleplaying… And last but not least the mud politics and intrigues, the love affairs and the breakups, the competition and retaliation, the bickering and bull****ting that seem to fill every mud, whether it is RPI or hack'n'slash - like a soap opera on TV, but with a cast of real people. I always thought that one of the most intriguing parts of a mud is the sense of community it creates among the players. To me this is something wondrous; a community consisting of players from all over the world - different races, cultures, languages, religions, all united by their common interest in the mud.

And one last thing: How many of all those fancy graphic muds do you think will manage to keep a player's attention and interest for a decade or more? I think only a text mud can do that, because a good text mud is never static, it keeps changing and evolving and presenting new challenges all the time.

A couple of practical questions, if we are to go forward with this idea:
1. We need to get a grip about the ideal length for the stories, or at least a maximum length. They should probably be rather short. Perhaps Brody, who has ran a column before, can help with some advise here.
2. We need a place to collect the stories, where they can be viewed by several people. My spontaneous suggestion would be in the article section of this site. If that is feasible I guess I could set up a temporal site for them myself.
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Old 12-04-2004, 02:20 PM   #106
 
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 04 2004,04:49)
(And come to think about that, there was another story along the same lines, posted in the Mud Humour Forum here some while ago, although I cannot find the link to it now. Perhaps someone else remembers?
Yeah I remember it. I thought it was the funniest thing I read since The Bohemian Mud Rhapsody.


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Old 12-04-2004, 03:13 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 04 2004,04:49)
We need a place to collect the stories, where they can be viewed by several people. My spontaneous suggestion would be in the article section of this site. If that is feasible I guess I could set up a temporal site for them myself.
Y'know, I think this is a pretty damned good idea - a MU* fiction section for TMS would be awesome. It'd take the project out of a specific MU* owner's hands and make it more of a community project, while also ensuring more traffic for TMS. And maybe we could compile a promotional PDF from the stories collected here. Up to Synozeer!
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Old 12-04-2004, 03:47 PM   #108
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Not that I ever expected me and the_logos to agree about anything in any case; our personal values are just too far apart for that.
I don't really see what personal values have to do with it. The results of advertising or marketing in terms of gaining customers (as opposed to branding campaigns) are quantifiable rather than a matter of opinion.

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My own opinion is, that a wellwritten story has a much better chance of swowing the nature of text muds than any advertisement, mostly because it is longer and more in depth than any advert could be.
Well, leaving aside the question of whether something that isn't a text MUD can ever really show the nature of them or not, the point here, presumably, isn't to show people the nature of text MUDs so much as to get them to play text MUDs. For that, advertisements are excellent. That advertising works to get people to play MUDs isn't really debatable. What may be debatable is whether it's the most efficient medium for doing so. My answer is I have no idea really, especially given that we've had such dramatically different results from advertising. I will say, though, that one reason to advertise over market in the kind of guerilla ways you're talking about is that advertising can reach magnitudes more people, albeit it at a financial cost that isn't palatable to many text MUDs.

If you guys do this, you should definitely try to quantify what results you get somehow. I'm unsure how to do it though given that you propose linking to TMS or TMC rather than specific MUDs, where you could track where incoming players heard about you from. May have to get with Adam and Andrew to see if they'll help out with the tracking there. Remember: Half of marketing is tracking the results of your marketing to see whether it's worth continuing. Granted, most of us (Iron Realms included) isn't in a position to expend a huge amount of resources on tracking all marketing efforts (I have no idea how many people we got/have got from the Child's Play charity initiative for instance.)


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… After all, a large part of our players are minors. If we as Mud owners don't follow some minimum standards of ethic and moral, what example will that set to the kids?
Most of our games involve some sort of frequent mass murder or genocide (monster bashing). I think we've already lost the battle there if we're equating in-game content to morality or ethics as pertains to kids. Genocide is way edgier than anything we're going to come up with, but it's so common place in games that nobody bats an eye (something I always find kind of funny).


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I tend to focus on the funny anacronisms and the bizarre side effects myself, because I always found that part of muds particularly entertaining. Even bugs or badly written zones can be hilarious at times...
Good plan. This goes along with the 'extreme/taboo' angle in that presenting outlier situations is inherently more interesting generally speaking.

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And one last thing: How many of all those fancy graphic muds do you think will manage to keep a player's attention and interest for a decade or more? I think only a text mud can do that, because a good text mud is never static, it keeps changing and evolving and presenting new challenges all the time.
A good graphical MUD isn't static either. Everquest releases a huge expansion pack every 6 months or so (although with the release of EQII they may not do that anymore, I dunno) that contains way more new content than most text MUDs put in in 6 months, for instance. Or look at SW:G. They recently released the Jump to Lightspeed expansion that opened up space and spaceships to players. HUGE expansion/change.

I think the major reason that people won't tend to play the same graphical MUD for a decade (not that there are that many text MUD players who play the same MUD regularly for a decade either) is that graphical MUDs are heavily tied to the technology they're using, which advances. Text MUD technology hasn't advanced in a long time. (like books! Course, having said that, there are still some people playing UO (7 years old now. Opened same month as Achaea! who were playing when it started. Not many, but then, there aren't many people playing Achaea regularly who were playing it when we opened.

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Old 12-05-2004, 12:10 PM   #109
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the_logos Dec. 04 2004,14:47
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I don't really see what personal values have to do with it. The results of advertising or marketing in terms of gaining customers (as opposed to branding campaigns) are quantifiable rather than a matter of opinion.
I think your entire post illustrates the difference in our 'personal values' better than anything I could say, so I am not going to dwell on that. Why don't you just stick to your advertising, and let the ones of us more interested in storytelling than counting numbers of hits develop this idea?

Now, if we are going to pursue this project any further, I think it needs some organizing to avoid unproductive work. Here are some thoughts:

1. As much as I'd like a separate section for storytelling to open on TMS, let's not lose track of the initial idea, which is to reach a target OUTSIDE the already establish Text Mud World. We need a paper magazine, or a Website directed mainly at a different audience, where we could get a chance to establish a 'column'. Brody mentioned RPG Times  already, are there any other potential targets we could approach?
(Still - one good thing with opening a new column here is that the efforts wouldn't be totally wasted if the entire idea turns out to be unfeasible).

2. A section for Mud stories on this site would be a great help in the task of collecting a large enough number of suitable stories before we approach the targets. I think we need a minimum number of 10 good stories to even start this out. I have suggested a few already, maybe somebody else could point us in some other direction? Some stories will also have to be written specifically for this venture, and perhaps a small reward for the authors would be in place? (It doesn't need to be any fancier than the already existing system of putting an icon next to the name of the author's home mud for a month).

3. The main problem with using already existing stories is probably the length. Although there are a number of very good stories to choose from, for instance in the earlier Storyteller competitions, most of them are way too longwinded. The stories we need for this venture would have to be comparatively short, or most people would never bother to read them through. We should probably settle on a max length right from the start. My initial suggestion would be a max of 1200 words, perhaps even 1000.

4. If we use already existing stories, we obviously need to seek out the authors of those and ask their permission to publish them again in another context. While this usually wouldn't be hard to get, it might present some difficulties in the cases where the authors have left the Mud world or even the internet, and old addresses are no longer valid. I am not sure of a solution to this one, maybe we'd just have to drop the stories in these cases, however good. Copyright should always be respected.

5. It would be a help if any people who wish to take part in this venture would announce their interest either in a reply to this thread, or in a E-mail/message to me or Brody. That would give us an idea of how many stories we might be able to get together, which in turn would be helpful to know, if and when we decide to contact some magazine. It would also be good if you gave a short synopsis or at least some idea of the type of subject you'd be choosing for your story. That could prevent several different people concentrating on similar subjects.

6. Apart from the stories themselves, I think we also need some light articles of more 'editorial' type, to explain some of the quaint features typical of text Muds to an audience that never played any. I was going to volunteer for the task of writing some of those myself, since that's the way my talents are leaning, but maybe some more people are interested in this type of writing?
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Old 12-05-2004, 12:54 PM   #110
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As I said, you can have mine - though I'd like to go over it again and edit it (get rid of the typos and tighten it up a bit) first.

There is also another project I've suggested and Jaewyn might be interested in getting off the ground in this thread - so if you want to give feedback or help brainstorm a name, stop by.
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Old 12-05-2004, 02:11 PM   #111
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I think we need a minimum number of 10 good stories to even start this out. I have suggested a few already, maybe somebody else could point us in some other direction?
Medievia's in-game newspaper, The Mudslinger, has been going strong for at least 9 years and has been archiving the stories and poetry since 1999.

You can visit the current Mudslinger at http://www.medievia.com/mudslinger.

Or, better yet, you can access a list of all Medievian stories at http://www.medievia.com/stories.html

If you would like Medievia to be a part of this story project, please don't hesitate to contact me.

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Old 12-05-2004, 02:29 PM   #112
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I'd rather not, thank you.
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Old 12-05-2004, 02:37 PM   #113
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I'll try to type something up for this. I'm not real great with constraining my writing to a specific theme, so I don't know how it will come out. If it's any good, I'll let you know.
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Old 12-05-2004, 03:03 PM   #114
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Wasn't Medthievia banned from the listings due to outright ignoring of the Diku license and worse?

Why are they still advertising here?
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Old 12-05-2004, 04:52 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 05 2004,11:10)
I think your entire post illustrates the difference in our 'personal values' better than anything I could say, so I am not going to dwell on that. Why don't you just stick to your advertising, and let the ones of us more interested in storytelling than counting numbers of hits develop this idea?
Perhaps you should read the title of this thread. "Text mud promotion to the outside world." It doesn't say, "Creative writing." Creative writing is great. But this thread is about promoting text MUDs, and promotion is about numbers. If you're honestly concerned with promoting text MUDs rather than simply putting stories out there for the sake of putting stories out there (not that there's anything wrong with that at all), then it's all about numbers and hits. There's not really any arguing with this. Tracking the results of your promotional activities is one of the first things a marketing class would teach you, as without tracking them, you have no idea if you're wasting your time or not.

Again, if you just want to put out stories, I think that's great. But if you're really concerned with promoting text muds (which is what this thread is about), then I suggest you look at it from a marketing perspective rather than a writing perspective. And from any perspective at all actually concerned with promoting text MUDs, ensuring you can track whether you're wasting your time or not is crucial. In fact, I'd challenge you to find me a single reputable marketing text that urges otherwise.

I mean, if it turns out there's just no feasible way to track it (for instance, perhaps Andrew and Adam don't want to help track how many visitors are coming from the fiction site) then so be it, but to dismiss the idea of tracking your marketing results is extremely naive.

--matt
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Old 12-05-2004, 05:54 PM   #116
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Soleil; Dec. 05 2004,13:11
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If you would like Medievia to be a part of this story project, please don't hesitate to contact me.
Honestly, Soleil, you sound like a nice person yourself, but you cannot really be unaware of what most Mudowners think about Medievia and the Diku code licence, can you?

I don't think we'd want to involve Medievia in any common cause for text muds. At least I wouldn't. I cannot of course speak for the rest of the community.

So thanks for the offer, but no thanks, at least as far as I am concerned. If Medievia is in on this project, I'm out.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:44 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 05 2004,16:54)
Honestly, Soleil, you sound like a nice person yourself, but you cannot really be unaware of what most Mudowners think about Medievia and the Diku code licence, can you?

I don't think we'd want to involve Medievia in any common cause for text muds. At least I wouldn't. I cannot of course speak for the rest of the community.

So thanks for the offer, but no thanks, at least as far as I am concerned. If Medievia is in on this project, I'm out.
Wow! Hypocrisy is on the march!

From Molly's mud's website: "Also there is another war going on in another Galaxy, far, far away. A group of the planets there, known as the Empire, are trying to subdue and enslave all other planets in the Galaxy. There are a few planets trying to resist the Empire and keep their freedom. The rebels fight a brave but losing battle against the overwhelming powers of the Empire, and a few Earthlings are involved in that battle too, although most of the contestants are alien races like Wookies, Twi'leks and Ewoks. Jedi Knights are leading the forces on both sides, some following the Dark Side, others the Power of Light."

But no doubt you have permission from Lucasarts right? In fact, obviously you don't, but you're not going to let that stop you from ostracizing Medievia. You don't have permission to use Lucasarts stuff, and, if the Medievia accusations are true, they're using IP without a license to do so. Seems exactly the same to me, except, of course, the IP you're using in a way you don't have permission to is worth billions of dollars more than the IP that Medievia is supposedly using without permission.

Note that I am not flaming your use of the Star Wars IP, incidentally. I decided awhile ago that if it's not worth it to the owner of the IP to do something about it, it's sure as heck not worth me caring about. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in your accusation.

--matt
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Old 12-06-2004, 05:10 AM   #118
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The_logos; Dec. 05 2004,23:44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wow! Hypocrisy is on the march!

Note that I am not flaming your use of the Star Wars IP, incidentally. I decided awhile ago that if it's not worth it to the owner of the IP to do something about it, it's sure as heck not worth me caring about. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in your accusation.
Oh yeah, you are not out to flame me, right?

Yes, we do have one zone (out of 187) that is based on Star Wars. How many other muds do?
We also have a small part of a zone very loosely based on LOTR. How many other muds do?
(There are entire muds based on LOTR or Wheel of Time and in almost every stock mud around you’ll find the Caves of Moria and the Hobbit Village, although it’s sometimes a smurf zone instead).

We probably have 2 or 3 other zones among the 187 inspired by other books or films. How many other muds do?

I like to use quotations and references to literature, myth and films in the zones myself, because that can create funny anachronisms along the lines of ‘A Yankee in King Arthur’s Court',  and because our theme is Time Travel. Since it has been such a widespread practice in all Muds right from the start, I never really saw anything wrong in doing it. I actually see it as paying reverence or 'fanzine' rather than IP theft. And since we never have been trying to hide it, I don't really see how the word 'hypocrisy' applies.

And I think only you could have got the idea of comparing this to abuse of the Diku licence. We all know your opinions about the Diku licence.

But since you weren’t out to flame me, I won’t delve into that.

Now, could we possibly go back to the topic of the thread?
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Old 12-06-2004, 05:58 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oh yeah, you are not out to flame me, right?
I'm not out to flame you, no. Why would I bother looking to flame you in particular? I would have posted the same thing to anyone who criticized Medievia for using IP in a way that it doesn't have permission to use when said person is also using IP in a way he or she doesn't have permission to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yes, we do have one zone (out of 187) that is based on Star Wars. How many other muds do?
We also have a small part of a zone very loosely based on LOTR. How many other muds do?
(There are entire muds based on LOTR or Wheel of Time and in almost every stock mud around you’ll find the Caves of Moria and the Hobbit Village, although it’s sometimes a smurf zone instead).
I guess this really is where our worldviews differ. I don't see much strength in an argument based on the logic that "Other people do it too!" or "Well, we have lots of IP that's not infringing!" I wonder what your reaction would be if someone logged into 4 Dimensions and just took a bunch of area descriptions, en masse, and incorporated them into their own mud. You'd be ok with that I assume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by
like to use quotations and references to literature, myth and films in the zones myself, because that can create funny anachronisms along the lines of ‘A Yankee in King Arthur’s Court',  and because our theme is Time Travel.
And no doubt if you assume that Medievia is DIKU-derived, they like using DIKU code. Just because you like to do something doesn't change whether it's right or wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
And since we never have been trying to hide it, I don't really see how the word 'hypocrisy' applies.
It's hypocritical to criticize them for doing something you do. Whether you hide the fact that you do it or not doesn't change whether it's hypocritical to criticize Medievia for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
And I think only you could have got the idea of comparing this to abuse of the Diku licence. We all know your opinions about the Diku licence.
My opinion about the DIKU license is the same as about the Star Wars license: If the owners don't think it's worth enforcing, why should I care? It means the IP either isn't worth enough to bother protecting (DIKU) or the IP is so large that a few text MUDs using it without permission is relatively irrelevant (Star Wars).

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Now, could we possibly go back to the topic of the thread?
Ahh right, it's ok for you to make a post shunning Medievia and implying they're horribly unethical, but can't have anyone pointing out that you do the same thing can we?

--matt
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Old 12-06-2004, 09:32 AM   #120
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Molly O'Hara @ Dec. 06 2004,04:10)
The_logos; Dec. 05 2004,23:44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wow! Hypocrisy is on the march!
... I actually see it as paying reverence or 'fanzine' rather than IP theft. And since we never have been trying to hide it, I don't really see how the word 'hypocrisy' applies.

And I think only you could have got the idea of comparing this to abuse of the Diku licence. We all know your opinions about the Diku licence.
Well you're not using the Star Wars properties against their stated policies are you? Non-commercial, don't sully image.

Links to Star Wars policies

OTOH, Mercthievia is violating the Diku license. Commercially too. Not even a prayer at a "fair use" defense. The other difference is they are dirty rotten liars.

No hyprocrisy involved.

Sorry Soliel you can't polish that turd here.
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