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Old 09-22-2002, 01:06 AM   #21
Scorpcrys
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Ok, we all agree it's about advertizing, but is it false advertizing?

I agree that the list, in its state now is going to depend on the number of people who play it, not how many times one person or a few people can push a button. If that's so, and it is about the number of people who play i'd like to know how many REAL people represent the number of votes they have. One hundred votes made by the same person doesn't have the credablity as say 5 votes made by 5 different people. Just my opinion. And i hope that everyone who sees this list is aware of how it is scored and the "tactics" used to get votes.

As for the quotes, the person who wrote the review at RPGplanet.com is not employeed by the company. Therefore RPGplanet.com did not say that quote ("The only MUD that still matters."). Do i blame them for advertizing? No. But they are cleary representing their product dishonestly.

As for the comment about Simutronics. Simutronics has actually asked people NOT to vote as often as they could. Not nagging people who are trying to RP in game with OCC requests to vote for their MUD. So please don't compare with the two.

A thought comes to mind when i saw exactly how the "blessing" worked. It seems to me that players who don't vote will be at a significant disadvantage to those who do. To me this do not appear to be encouragement, it pretty much forces you to vote if you want to stay ahead in the game.

Again slimy. People should choose to vote because they love the game, not because they are forced to.
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:27 AM   #22
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I'd have to agree with everything rhakshai said.

At first I thought it was an artocity, until I realised why I thought it was an atrocity. People are recieving IC rewards for OOC actions. Now if the Imms ever thought of implementing this at Armageddon, I'd kill them. Why? because Armageddon is an RPI, so IC rewards for an OOC action is ridiculous.

Now what about Muds, that are H&S or RP Encouraged? From a PLAYERS point of view I don't see a problem with it for H&S and not TOO big a problem with RP encouraged muds. But that's the view I'd have as a PLAYER from said Mud.

The voting system ISN'T for the best, it's for the most heavily populated mud. And I don't see anything wrong with this, as when I look for a new mud, just as a break from Armageddon, I -want- a heavily populated Mud, and love the system that is in place here.

I think the only people who should really care about Achea's voting system, are the players.

If THEY mind having a message every 10mins saying "Don't forget to vote" then THEY should go to Achea's staff and say as much.

If THEY have a problem with people recieving IC benefits for voting, then THEY should go to Achea's staff and say as much.

That's what I think the issue should be, are the players getting annoyed? If they aren't then who cares, but if they are and it doesn't change, then I think the Muds who use this system will suffer, because the players will either leave or stop voting.

Although I can understand everyone's frustration. Because they try so hard to create a good mud, and then have another mud beat them by a method that would be considered "not right" if they implemented in their Mud.

The only problem I could possibly have as a non-Achea person, is if they were bribing the TMS staff.
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:29 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Scorpcrys @ Sep. 22 2002,01:06 am)
As for the quotes, the person who wrote the review at RPGplanet.com is not employeed by the company. Therefore RPGplanet.com did not say that quote ("The only MUD that still matters."). Do i blame them for advertizing? No. But they are cleary representing their product dishonestly.

As for the comment about Simutronics. Simutronics has actually asked people NOT to vote as often as they could. Not nagging people who are trying to RP in game with OCC requests to vote for their MUD. So please don't compare with the two.

A thought comes to mind when i saw exactly how the "blessing" worked. It seems to me that players who don't vote will be at a significant disadvantage to those who do. To me this do not appear to be encouragement, it pretty much forces you to vote if you want to stay ahead in the game.
On the quotes: perhaps you have a point. Perhaps it would have been more forward of them to quote it as a "review posted ON RPGplanet.com. But I personally don't think that being vague about it is the same as being deliberately dishonest. Perhaps this is a slight "lie by ommission" but it's not quite the same as making up a quote, as it has been implied Achaea did.

On Simutronics: I actually just read one of their reviews that said that giving people ooc requests to vote is EXACTLY what they did. But that's just based on hearsay....any players/admins around who can give verification either way?

Oh, and I full admit that I am biased...I probably shouldn't have brought up Simutronics, but I hate the company. Heh. Sorry.

On the blessing: again, perhaps you have a point. But as I pointed out, this is not a system where xp is that important. If you happen to be earning a fraction less xp than someone else, what kind of difference does it really make? It's not like a diku-type mud, where your equipment and skills and suchlike are based on your level, which is directly based on how much xp you earn by killing monsters. The main benefit you get from levels is a few more points to put into skills (and there are ways to get them besides leveling) and an increase in health/mana/etc. When it takes you 15-20 hours to level (as it does where my main char is at), it's pretty irrelevent. So maybe there's a *little* incentive to "keep up with the Jones" as it were, by getting the blessing. But it's not like it's such a big impact on the gameplay, or even on xping, that you're virtually forcing people to do it.

You seem to view this issue as very black and white...I guess that's just how you see things. I see things with more degrees. For example, the blessing, if it is sleazy, is much better than if, say, a mud were to force you to vote for them before you were allowed to log in.



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Old 09-22-2002, 02:09 AM   #24
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Thanks for the consessions and admitting that not everything is all and well. But i too must admit i'm biased. I'm a long time Dragonrealms player that was recently introduced to this site (along with the entire playerbase).

So i can verify that there was *one* in game announcement that the button had put up. I wasn't playing at the time but there has been alot of discussion about it on our message boards. That's a big difference from a daily "reminder". And i can also tell you for a fact that the Simutronics staff has asked the players not to vote simply because they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pretty much everyone with any kind of common sense realizes that the list isnt based on the "best" mud but instead on the most populated. It seems to reflect that pretty well. - Tavish
I'm sorry but this statement is so wrong. The following is a quote from the Dragonrealms message board:

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Right now, as prime time winds down on Saturday night (10pm central time)...

There are 943 people in DragonRealms.

There are 989 people in GemstoneIII.

There are 244 people in Achaea (had to count manually from WHO/MORE).
This numbers are pretty typical (if you're wondering if this might be particulary busy night).

Is this list reflecting population of the MUD? No. It is reflecting quality of the MUD? Perhaps on a more general level i say yes it is. It would more so if the administaters let the players make the desicion to vote or not.

I think we all have to accept this list for what it is and not base our MUD's worth on it.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Scorpcrys @ Sep. 22 2002,02:09 am)
I think we all have to accept this list for what it is and not base our MUD's worth on it.
I'd definitely agree with that.

On a personal note...

Do I think Achaea is the best mud on the list? Sure I do, if I had played a mud that was much better, I would be spending my time there.

Is that a biased opinion? Yep, of course. I haven't played every mud on the list...and besides which, just because a mud is good for me doesn't mean it's great for everyone else. There are people who hate Achaea with a passion. That's fine, it's not for them. Find a new mud, have a nice life. I've played muds that I thought were miserable pieces of trash, but they have playerbases of tens or hundreds of people who rave about the mud and play it fanatically. That's fine too, I accept it's not the mud for me and move on. About all we can ever say about a mud is that there are some people that like it and others that don't...I don't think there's any such thing as an overall "best mud" which is why I see topmuds as an advertising tool, not some kind of benchmark of whose mud is best.

I don't think being listed on the top of topmuds.com makes a difference to Achaea in quantity or quality of players (unless that explains why there are so many psychotic pk-mad newbies this weekend...or it could be murphy's law since there's a godmeet going on). But if having Achaea listed near the top is what blows Matt's hair back, then fine.

Oh, and on the subject of Dragonrealms- I was a player too, before the game went pay-for-play. I understood why they did and I didn't resent it- I was just a poor, jobless kid who couldn't afford it, so I sadly gave up my character and left. I was apalled when I saw them add premium service, and charge for special events, and that's the main reason I won't go back. I'm sure it's still got a lot of great features- I've never seen a healing guild equal the empaths, for example, and I love war mage familiars. But all in all, I know I'd just be disappointed...I'd rather let DR live in my memory as my first and best mud experience, without letting cruel reality spoil it. *grin*

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Old 09-22-2002, 02:47 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (rhakshai @ Sep. 22 2002,02:26 am)
Oh, and on the subject of Dragonrealms- I was a player too, before the game went pay-for-play.  


DragonRealms was always Pay-for-play.  It's never been "free".  When AOL was set up for hourly payments, a (large) percentage of your monthly AOL bill came to us.  You were always paying for access to DR.

The reason we left AOL was because when they went to unlimited access, they suddently found out that because of their contract with us, they still had to pay us based on hourly usage and then, of course, they wanted to renegotiate so they wouldn't have to pay through the nose for people who were used to paying $1000+ a month and now only paying $19.95.


Just thought I would clarify that. <!--emo&


Personally, I could care LESS who's at the top of the list.

We all know Achaea's "cheating" by bribing it's playerbase to vote.  We all know the quotes they're touting on their home page are a little misleading and deceptive.  We all know their claims to be the #1 mud on the internet are not valid.

Big deal.

I came to TopMUDSites because I wanted people who were into MUDs and text games of all kinds to know that there are some well-established games out there that they may not have had the opportunity to experience.  Sure, we charge a monthly fee and yes, we have more expensive options for memberships and yes we also have large events that sometimes cost additional money.

We also have several hundred staff members who work pretty much around the clock to make sure DR is as good as we can make it.

I (and a lot of other people) think it's worth it.

If you don't, then more power to you.  Not every game fits everyone's ideal of a perfect world. There's nothing wrong, however, with getting our name out there where people who already play our kind of game hang out.




Solomon

Producer, DragonRealms
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:59 AM   #27
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To Rhaky, you are certainly right about a MUD being a personal preference and that a list of MUDs can't tell you which is best _for you_. It should be more about "what's best for most".

Without getting too far off topic, I'd like to meantion that Dragonrealms is free for the first month and you can log in through www.zone.msn.com without giving credit card info or what not. If you'd like i'd be happy to show you around and introduce you to a few friends. Just an offer, incase you budge

Dyonix, War Mage of Elanthia
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Old 09-22-2002, 03:38 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Aeledius @ Sep. 21 2002,10:16 pm)
Anyone who has an account there can confirm it.  Every few minutes, if you haven't voted for them that day, it sends you this messing within the MUD:

[Tip]: Did you know that you could be getting a 10% bonus to your experience gain? Read HELP BLESSING for more info.

Contents of HELP BLESSING:

The blessing will give you a 10% bonus to all xp you gain, and reduce any xp you lose from death by 10%. They all wear off at midnight GMT with the Orphean Serenade, but you can easily get one again.

All you have to do is:
1. Go to http://www.achaea.com/main.html
2. Click on the 'Vote for Achaea as #1 MUD' button.
3. Click on the 'Click Here To Enter' box.

That's it! Any character online from the same internet address (more formally called an IP address) will receive the blessing within a minute or so. The blessing will last until midnight GMT, at which point you simply vote again to
get the blessing again. We appreciate you doing this for us, and the blessing is our thank you. Thanks!

INFO: We know that some people are unable to get the blessing even though they have voted. This is a result of your ISP (often AOL) forcing you to use a web proxy. Most of the problems can be fixed if you're an AOL users by simply using a browser different from the AOL one. For instance, a standard Internet Explorer installation will work fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anyone who has an account there can confirm it.  Every few minutes, if you haven't voted for them that day, it sends you this messing within the MUD:

[Tip]: Did you know that you could be getting a 10% bonus to your experience gain? Read HELP BLESSING for more info.
This doesn't sound as much like bribing as blackmailing to me.

To compare to real life, this isn't like someone giving you a shiny quarter to vote.  It is like someone offering you a shiny quarter to vote, and doing it every few minutes until you get up and vote, so that the reward is both the shiny quarter and getting rid of the anoying guy with the quarter and the voting fetish.  Maybe this isn't a bad thing, I'm sure it would get more people to vote in real life elections if only to get rid of the annoying reminders going on all day on voting day.  

As someone else said, this is a thing that mainly affects the players of the MUD that is doing it.  It looks like the only way to get rid of the reminder would be to vote for the MUD, which would be pretty annoying.  I suppose you could go vote for another mud, then vote for Achea, and then vote for another mud again.  That way you would get the bonus and get rid of the reminders while at the same time making sure that your vote for Achea doesn't count, but it sounds like a lot of work to me just to make a point about the principle of the thing.

Angela Christine
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Old 09-22-2002, 04:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeledius,Sep. 21 2002,10:16 pm
Anyone who has an account there can confirm it.  Every few minutes, if you haven't voted for them that day, it sends you this messing within the MUD:

See...that's the tacky part, IMO.

If *WE* offered any sort of in-game "prize" or incentive (ar annoying reminder) to vote, I shudder to think of what the results would be.  I mean seriously...if we could just get everyone in the three versions of DR that are running right now to vote, (aside from crashing TMS again) the result would be rediculous and Achaea would never be able to compete.

Imagine the impact that any sort of in-game carrot would have. :\
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Old 09-22-2002, 07:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quote  
Pretty much everyone with any kind of common sense realizes that the list isnt based on the "best" mud but instead on the most populated.  It seems to reflect that pretty well. - Tavish  


I'm sorry but this statement is so wrong.  The following is a quote from the Dragonrealms message board:

Quote  
Right now, as prime time winds down on Saturday night (10pm central time)...

There are 943 people in DragonRealms.

There are 989 people in GemstoneIII.

There are 244 people in Achaea (had to count manually from WHO/MORE).

As of this posting I'm willing to wager that the top 7 muds on the list are all in the top 15 or or so muds in existance as far as pbase is concerned. Seems to be pretty accurate in terms of size to me.  If you want to split hairs over the order then we can do that, but as a whole it reflects exactly what the system is set-up to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Is this list reflecting population of the MUD? No. It is reflecting quality of the MUD? Perhaps on a more general level i say yes it is. It would more so if the administaters let the players make the desicion to vote or not.
Players do make the desicion to vote or not.  If it really bothers the players of Achaea to vote that much then they can leave, if the players of DR are that upset that another mud is above them in the list they can vote and change it.  Why?  Because they have the population to do it, and because they have that choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
We all know Achaea's "cheating" by bribing it's playerbase to vote.  We all know the quotes they're touting on their home page are a little misleading and deceptive.  We all know their claims to be the #1 mud on the internet are not valid.
This is exactly what I am getting at.  It's not cheating, NOWHERE in the terms of service is encouraging players to vote (no matter the means) against any rule.  I think charging to play in special events to be evil and misleading to players, so does that mean its wrong and cheating to do it?  Not at all.  I think paying for banners on mud sites is unfair for free muds who can't afford that type of advertising, should muds not be allowed to do it?  Of course not.   You give someone the oppurtunity for free advertising you have to expect some will take advantage of it more so than others.
The real issue is what the thread started out with, the misleading ads.  And from the looks of things the "voted #1 mud on earth" ad may just end up being true, no matter how much everyone despises it.
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:07 PM   #31
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The Achaea game is aquiring a very bad reputation over these issues. Tavish's posts are quickly losing creditablity as each statement he says is contradicted and proven otherwise.

Just because what Achaea is doing is not against terms of service does not mean that it isn't "cheating". You are inflating your vote by a lot and contaminating this list and making it worthless. This scheme has cheapened the ranks and made it meaningless, ruining it for everyone. Never the less, you seem to be unwavering on your stance so i hope it serves your purposes (one way or another). And i hope it was worth dragging your game's name in the mud. I, for one, will never play Achaea after seeing the child-like behavior displayed the game's adiministration.

If this list means so much to you that you would destroy it's interigity and your own, so be it. What's that saying? Let the baby have his bottle?
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Old 09-22-2002, 01:28 PM   #32
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Actually I am in no way affiliated with Achaea, I am work on my mud as a hobby.  What concerns me is the fact that people are trying to control how others run thier mud.  When (if) I do go public I would hate to think that if I were to put my mud on the list I would be subjected to scrunity of the things I can say or do within my system.  Things that are in no way contraditing the terms of service I signed up for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Achaea game is aquiring a very bad reputation over these issues.
Actually I see it just the oppostie.  DR seems to be complaining an awful lot about the fact that they are number 2 on the list when they turn around and post they have nearly 1000 players on during peak times.  They recieve the same free advertising for using the list that all the other muds do.  If it bothers them this much perhaps the players should vote more often.  Surely you can find enough people willing to glorify the game that would boost you to the top.  Perhaps then the constant complaints about other games will stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tavish's posts are quickly losing creditablity as each statement he says is contradicted and proven otherwise.
Show me any statement of mine proven wrong or contradicted by anything other than the same complaint of cheating some hidden "spirit of the rules".  

Consider what Achaea is doing to be beneath you all you want, but it is not cheating.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:09 PM   #33
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I don't really have a problem with Achea because it's practices are necessarily against the rules, but rather because they are unethical on the whole. Now, what is unethical? Debate that ad nausem if you wish. But, I do consider what they are doing as bribery, which, in at least my, and I'd imagine any non-Machiavellian mind, is not something one should be doing. Here's the dictionary definition of bribe(the noun, not the verb):

Quote:
Originally Posted by
bribe   Pronunciation Key (brIb)
n.
Something, such as money or a favor, offered or given to a person in a position of trust to influence that person's views or conduct.
Now, I'd consider experience as a 'something', and it is definitely offered to influence someone that is in a position of trust's (anyone who votes here is trusted to vote for the product that they consider a Top Mud) conduct (in this case voting) to doing something they may otherwise not do were it not offered.

Perhaps it is not explicitly against the rules, but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps it's not explicitly wrong, but perhaps it should be.

If someone wishes to condone, or even defend bribery, that's their thing, but come on, at least just call it what it is.

~Meta~
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by
DR seems to be complaining an awful lot about the fact that they are number 2 on the list when they turn around and post they have nearly 1000 players on during peak times.
Please tell me how this is complaining. I gave the numbers to prove a point which is quite clear in my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Show me any statement of mine proven wrong or contradicted by anything other than the same complaint of cheating some hidden "spirit of the rules".
It is simply redundant for me to repeat myself. Please read the previous posts and answer your own questions.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by
Actually I see it just the oppostie.  DR seems to be complaining an awful lot about the fact that they are number 2 on the list when they turn around and post they have nearly 1000 players on during peak times.  They recieve the same free advertising for using the list that all the other muds do.  If it bothers them this much perhaps the players should vote more often.  Surely you can find enough people willing to glorify the game that would boost you to the top.  Perhaps then the constant complaints about other games will stop.

Try reading my posts before you put words in my mouth.

I could care less who's on top.  I've said so here, I've said so on our forums.

READ what I've said rather than what you want to see me say.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
If someone wishes to condone, or even defend bribery, that's their thing, but come on, at least just call it what it is.
I have no problem at all calling it bribery.  But if it is not against the rules of the system then why is everyone complaining about it?  MUD A bribes players with experience to gain votes, MUD B puts up daily reminders for players to votes, MUD C does nothing except put the link up.  They all are doing what they believe is right within the system.  Does that give MUD C the right to call A and B cheaters because they use methods that they do not?  How is posting notes that encourage players to vote any different than offering exp for votes.  The experience bonus is completely contained within that mud's game.  If I put the ultimatium out to my players that if you do not vote for my mud you will be banned, is it the communities job to stop me from doing that, or is it my players desicion to put up with it or leave?
The point still stands that unless Synozeer changes the terms of service for the voting list, you can consider those types of tatics to be unethical, slimy, evil or whatever, but it is NOT cheating.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:32 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
SimuBubba:
Try reading my posts before you put words in my mouth.
Actually that entire statement was in reference to a quote from Scropcrys.  Try reading my post before commenting.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:46 PM   #38
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Alright, this has gone on long enough.

My original post was to air to topics:

1) To inform people of what had changed in the community so everyone is not standing around wondering what on earth happened to make Achaea #1 on the list.

2) To figure out if there was a ruling on the subject and whether there should be.

3) And finally, but least important, was to express my personal and individual take on the subject.

I was happy to get some response and not have the issue ignored, but I would have been equally happy if everyone agreed that it was unethical, or that it was fine, or if everyone disagreed.

But now people are turning it into personal redicule and jabs which is very unbecoming of us, we who are supposed to be an example of the mudding community.  I would like to think we can debate these topics in a civilized manner rather than spamming the members with arguements of "Read my post before you post" and "You read mine first!"  It is getting us nowhere.

Furthur more, most are arguing the same thing:  Is it cheating? Well, that depends on your definition.  Is it breaking the rules of this site: No, is it breaking rules or morality: perhaps, that is an individual opinion.  To say it is cheating does not give us a reference to judge from.  To say its cheating according to TopMudSites.com is basically to say does Synozeer consider it cheating, Travish says no, which means Travish doesn't consider it cheating, nothing more, nothing less.  Travish, you have no right to say that Scorpcrys opinion is wrong, neither does he have the right to say that yours is.

Now, we should stop attacking each other, and attack the issue at hand as productive members of the mudding community, not like whining children.  If this continues we'll have a 50 page flame of "You started it!" and "Did not, you did!"

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive to some parties, it was not intended to be.

James Meyer
aka Aldyn, Creator and Founder of Aeledius
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:46 PM   #39
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Incase you haven't noticed, Simububba is a producer of Dragonrealms and certainly the has the last word on how the DR community feels about this issue.
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Old 09-22-2002, 02:50 PM   #40
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Aeledius, excellent point
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