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Old 08-30-2007, 06:41 AM   #1
KaVir
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PK restricted or unrestricted?

On the "free" thread, Lasher used the PK restricted/unrestricted as part of an example.

My question is: What is the TMS official definition, if any?

For some reason I always thought it referred to restrictions such as level-based (can only kill players within a certain level range), clan-based (can only kill people in clans), and that sort of thing, but having read over it I've realised it doesn't say that.

Taken in the most literal sense, an unrestricted PK mud would be the sort where you could kill newbies the second they logged into the game, and the only way they could avoid you would be to quit. A single griefer could render such a game unplayable for newbies, so I'm not sure that such a literal definition was intended.

My approach used to work as follows:

When you first begin play, you are unclassed. This phase usually lasts around 10-20 hours for a first-time player, or 2-5 hours for someone who's played before. The newbie world is safe from PK, except in the duelling arenas and one particularly challenging zone. I consider this the "newbie" phase, the equivalent to mud school, where players are learning the game mechanics and trying to decide which type of character best fits their playing style.

After classing, the only way to advance is within the Nexus - the main (and by far the largest) world, where anyone can kill anyone else without restriction. Newly classed players soon learn to run away whenever they see another player, and should expect to be killed frequently with extreme prejudice for no reason. This is the 'main' game, where players spend hundreds if not thousands of hours developing their characters.

At the time I felt that "PK unrestricted" was the best match, as the main game itself had no PK restrictions of any kind. I felt it would be misleading to advertise the mud as "PK restricted" when that restriction only applied to the newbie phase.

However I've since added some limitations on PK within the Nexus:

1. Although you can still kill anyone, if you kill someone much weaker than yourself you actually lose primal (the equivalent of exp), as the energy you absorb from them is described as diluting your own power.

2. If you're not botting (and not a hardcore player), you have a grace period after being PK'd which lasts 10-30 minutes (shorter time for stronger players) or until you've killed between 1 and 10 mobs.

3. Within the Nexus are various instanced zones. You cannot enter such a zone if you've recently been fighting, and everyone can see on the 'who' list which instanced zone you're in (so you may find someone waiting outside when you leave), but because the zone is instanced other players can't follow you inside which effectively makes them non-PK.

Option 1 discourages killing players much weaker than yourself, but doesn't prevent it. Option 3 provides non-PK activities, but these are really outside of the main game. Personally I wouldn't consider either of these to be PK restricted.

However option 2 is certainly a form of PK restriction. It doesn't actually stop anyone from killing you, but it does restrict how often they can do it (i.e., they can't spamkill you, they have to wait at least a few minutes before they can kill you again).

I have no personal preferences about listing my game as either "restricted PK" or "unrestricted PK", but I'm having trouble deciding which would be the least misleading for potential players.
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:30 AM   #2
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

We put 'restricted' as well, although I suspect very few games are 'unrestricted' in the pure sense of the word. Our 'hard' restrictions:

1) The gods protect the very weak from the very strong, in a system that's based on both experience and track record (as in, if you are racking up victories, the game adjusts how 'strong' it thinks you are).

2) Once someone is defeated, they arrive as a (weaker) spirit at their god's temple. (Until they are weakened too much, where permadeath sets in.) Until their body reforms (10-15 minutes, similar to Kavir's game), they are safe from attack.

Beyond that, we're RP-required so some attacks cause problems there, but that's generally handled in an In-Character way. (For example, a paladin who murders another paladin will likely find themselves cast from the guild and unable to commune.)
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:43 AM   #3
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaVir View Post
I have no personal preferences about listing my game as either "restricted PK" or "unrestricted PK", but I'm having trouble deciding which would be the least misleading for potential players.
I think you should look for what the MAIN object of the game is, and what type of players you'd want to attract. In a Mud like GodWars, where advanced combat and PvP is the main focus, and I assume all players are PK, after they pass he learning stage, I think you should check 'full PK', even if you grant them a learning period, and some 'safe' spots to recuperate between battles. Otherwise you might lose some potentially good Pkillers, who regard restricted PK as 'sissy'.

(I actually doubt that any serious PK Mud would allow their players to kill newbies the second they logged into the game, it's too obviously open to abuse. Twink Muds, yes, serious Muds, no).

At least that's how I'd interpret 'full PK' myself.

'Restricted PK' to me would be where you can only kill within a certain level range, only in certain PK zones or in the Arena, only during Clan Wars, or where you can kill, but not loot other players.

In 4D, where the main focus of the game is questing and exploring, we have another type of restricted PK, where you can choose if you want to become PK or not. Pkillers get a PK flag, and can only kill and loot other players with that flag. I admit that this is a bit of a funny system RP-wise, but at least we can justify it with the explanation that the Time Travel Agency sells journeys where you can choose to travel as a 'combatant' or an 'observer'. Anyhow, we are not RP enforced, so that makes it easier to defend.

I believe the labeling would be a bit harder for a RP enforced Mud. If you are only allowed to kill IC, does that make it full PK or restricted PK? Spontaneously I'd say full PK, provided everyone could attack and kill everybody else theoretically. If there is some sort of Justice or Bounty system, where murderers get hunted and punished, like there seems to be in Valg's Mud, this makes things more IC, but not necessarily restricted PK. But I admit it's a tricky choice.

Anyhow, with so many different options within the system, maybe it would be nice to add a small drop down textbox, where the mudowners could explain their system a bit better, as suggested for the Payment options?
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:38 AM   #4
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly View Post
Anyhow, with so many different options within the system, maybe it would be nice to add a small drop down textbox, where the mudowners could explain their system a bit better, as suggested for the Payment options?
I couldn't agree more!

I had the same problem as Kavir, except I'm at the other end. We have arena only pkill and I was tempted to click no pkill since most muds listed as such have arenas, but I think I am listed as restricted on most sites as I'm afraid the none option might mislead people. Maybe none would have been fine if I stuck with a single arena, but now we have areas where you can level and get equipment that are arena so I think I have to click restricted now.

I wonder if there should be two sets of options?

Does mud allow player vs player combat?
[] No PvP what-so-ever (are there any muds like this?)
[] Arena only
[] Duels (both players must explictly agree)
[] restricted to certain areas
[] players must "turn on" PvP option
[] all players "pkill" after certain point in game
[] all players "pkill" upon creation (again, any muds like this?)

PvP restrictions?
[] no restrictions
[] restricted by level
[] requires roleplay reason
[] other

maybe even a third set for what happens if you lose?
Do you die or is it non-lethal? Perma-death? Do you lose equipment or experience?
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:07 AM   #5
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Perhaps it might be interesting to list what many MUSHes are like for PvP:
  • all players "pkill" upon creation
  • roleplay reason required
  • players must consent to all damage inflicted, including death
  • death is permanent
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Old 09-01-2007, 02:45 AM   #6
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScourgeX View Post
I wonder if there should be two sets of options?

Does mud allow player vs player combat?
[] No PvP what-so-ever (are there any muds like this?)
[] Arena only
[] Duels (both players must explictly agree)
[] restricted to certain areas
[] players must "turn on" PvP option
[] all players "pkill" after certain point in game
[] all players "pkill" upon creation (again, any muds like this?)

PvP restrictions?
[] no restrictions
[] restricted by level
[] requires roleplay reason
[] other

maybe even a third set for what happens if you lose?
Do you die or is it non-lethal? Perma-death? Do you lose equipment or experience?
This seems difficult as I read over the options and think of how PK is handled in NW.

There are numerous rules to pk and variances that would require detailed box checking and reading of the help files within the game to understand how death and pk operate (guilds, level, location can be factors). NW even has some forms of Permadeath depending on roleplay, reason for death, location, and other factors. So it seems we'd be checking alot of the boxes to the point it may become redundant and convoluted.
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Old 09-01-2007, 05:46 PM   #7
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Maybe then just go with 4 choices and a text box like with the payment thread:
[] No PvP
[] PvP is voluntary
[] PvP required, with restrictions
[] PvP required, free-for-all

To me, "pkill restricted" can either mean you can opt-out or there are level or other restrictions so not everyone can kill you. In theory, it can be both, but I'm not sure breaking out the second choice is necessary and there are probably a lot of variations for this choice anyway (hence the text box)
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:35 PM   #8
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScourgeX View Post
Maybe then just go with 4 choices and a text box like with the payment thread:
[] No PvP
[] PvP is voluntary
[] PvP required, with restrictions
[] PvP required, free-for-all

To me, "pkill restricted" can either mean you can opt-out or there are level or other restrictions so not everyone can kill you. In theory, it can be both, but I'm not sure breaking out the second choice is necessary and there are probably a lot of variations for this choice anyway (hence the text box)
Sounds good to me, though the required word is confusing. Are you "required" to pvp? Remove required, and I think it will work. Like:

[] No PvP
[] PvP is voluntary
[] PvP with restrictions
[] PvP free-for-all
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:52 PM   #9
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Might want to cut it down to 3 options and allow to add a note.

[ ] No PvP - list exceptions, like an arena.
[ ] PvP is voluntary - list conditions, like joining a clan.
[ ] PvP is involuntary - list restrictions, like no pvp for newbies.

I could be mistaken, but I think voluntary vs involuntary pk makes the biggest difference to most people since many people only want to start pkilling once they feel ready to do so, rather then when the game decides they are ready.

Also some people do not wish to pkill in any kind of form but don't mind pkill being available to those who desire to participate.
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:34 PM   #10
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scourgex
[] all players "pkill" upon creation (again, any muds like this?)
This describes DartMUD and I believe our 'daughter' mud, Accursed Lands. Not only can you be killed immediately on generation, but we have permadeath, so it's likely you will be completely destroyed if this happens.

On the other hand, this is *highly* unlikely to happen. We have no toleration for griefers and all PK's must have a valid IC and RP'd reason. Secondly, PK is very much restricted by social pressures.

I've seen much more PK on so-called unrestricted PK muds than on DartMUD.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:51 PM   #11
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
Might want to cut it down to 3 options and allow to add a note.

[ ] No PvP - list exceptions, like an arena.
[ ] PvP is voluntary - list conditions, like joining a clan.
[ ] PvP is involuntary - list restrictions, like no pvp for newbies.

I could be mistaken, but I think voluntary vs involuntary pk makes the biggest difference to most people since many people only want to start pkilling once they feel ready to do so, rather then when the game decides they are ready.

Also some people do not wish to pkill in any kind of form but don't mind pkill being available to those who desire to participate.
I like this listing and will stamp my vote on it.
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Old 09-02-2007, 09:45 AM   #12
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scandum View Post
Might want to cut it down to 3 options and allow to add a note.

[ ] No PvP - list exceptions, like an arena.
[ ] PvP is voluntary - list conditions, like joining a clan.
[ ] PvP is involuntary - list restrictions, like no pvp for newbies.
I think this is the most elegant of the systems proposed. I like that it captures what players often ask about (voluntary/consent vs. involuntary) while guiding the admin in a direction as to what the text box should include.
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Old 09-02-2007, 03:44 PM   #13
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Sounds pretty good to me. I know this is a huge deal for a lot of players, though again, I would prefer a two check system.

[ ] PvP exists (with the option to explain more if there is PvP)
[ ] No PvP

I still believe that the check boxes should exist to make it as simple on the players who need very specific and strict requirements as well as the admins checking the boxes. I'm a bit confused by the distinction between the two PvP checks. If you could conceivably engage anyone in the game in PvP, but there are simply rules in place to protect newbies and non-conflict characters, do I check the involuntary one? I assume the voluntary one is something where you actively have to sign up for PvP like the typical "PvP flag" system?

Still, if others protest, I'm game for the 3 box system, too. Better than the 10 box system any day.

Last edited by Milawe : 09-02-2007 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Left out a statement or two
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:20 PM   #14
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mina View Post
If you could conceivably engage anyone in the game in PvP, but there are simply rules in place to protect newbies and non-conflict characters, do I check the involuntary one?
If it's easy for a player (rp wise) to stay out of pk I'd guess it'd be voluntary, even when it's a social rather than a hard coded restriction.
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:32 PM   #15
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mina View Post
I'm a bit confused by the distinction between the two PvP checks. If you could conceivably engage anyone in the game in PvP, but there are simply rules in place to protect newbies and non-conflict characters, do I check the involuntary one? I assume the voluntary one is something where you actively have to sign up for PvP like the typical "PvP flag" system?
I think, from looking at it, given your example you'd check the involuntary one and list the restrictions (if any) as specified. Voluntary PK means you have to give permission, either through typing a command, actively joining an organisation, or signing on the dotted line, for other people to be able to kill you. Involuntary is as you said, anyone can attack anyone else without that persons permission.

As examples I'll give my old MUD Abandoned Realms, which has involuntary PK because you can attack someone without their consent, but restrictions because you can't attack new players or people outside a certain range (in an attempt to make things fair). I believe numerous MUDs use a similar system. They would check the involuntary box and fill in the restrictions in the text box.

Another MUD I played whose name escapes me required you to be a member of a guild before any PK could take place, and this was made clear numerous times before you were allowed to join one. In this case they would tick the voluntary box, as it's physically impossible to attack someone without their permission (which they give by joining a guild).

I think that three box solution with a text field is a very good idea personally. It should make things nice and clear.
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Old 09-02-2007, 09:01 PM   #16
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

I vote for the 3 checkboxes, which is really what we have now, just the new wording is more clear. I don't think the 2 box one would work, right now only a small percentage of muds are listed as no pkill, and if you read their descriptions or their website, most have some sort of arena which would be the "voluntary" choice.
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Old 09-02-2007, 09:53 PM   #17
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Yeah, I always feel, though, that's the people who want no PK at all REALLY want it, and thus, it's a "make or break" thing for them. For people who don't care either way or love PK, the other two choices don't really help. It's the rest of the game that's going to make the difference for them.
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Old 09-03-2007, 05:26 AM   #18
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Re: PK restricted or unrestricted?

Another vote for Scandum's three-choice proposal.

[ ] No PvP - list exceptions, like an arena.
[ ] PvP is voluntary - list conditions, like joining a clan.
[X] PvP is involuntary - list restrictions, like no pvp for newbies.

TEXT BOX: Arena-only for newbies. Classed characters have no PK restrictions within the main world, but have a short grace period after death.
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