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Old 04-23-2010, 10:08 AM   #81
Aermyn
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Re: What types of games are impacted the most by permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Newworlds View Post
I will agree with Milawe as well, because she mostly make sense in her posts, however, I will disagree with the idea that everyone has to get along to not divide the community. Good solid respectful arguments for or against something breeds innovation and progressive quality. To simply say "you are all winners" is a passive complacent fantasy land that lends itself to mediocrity.

However, to simply "put something down" just because you don't like it or use it is ignorant.
I agree with you, to a point, however most of these posts and discussions turn out to be degenerative versus actually producing quality. Especially here, a lot of people are so dead stuck in their own views they do not bend or sway for others, let alone try and come up with solutions to these issues. Not to mention, most of the time, these types of discussions turn into a wall of ranting text that never helps the situation.

So, I tend to not care about those types of discussions, as they lead to bogus opinions that really have no affect on me, my mud, or role-play whatsoever, just whenever it gets the community split and creates the 'my mud has real RP, vs. your crappy mud that has levels/classes.' That is degenerative and causes people to have to pick sides and closes players minds to a narrow view of what an RP mud should or should not be.

And, it is all exactly the same, whether you role-play for tabletop, muds, or in the bedroom, it is still role-play.
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:05 AM   #82
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Re: What types of games are impacted the most by permadeath?

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Originally Posted by Aermyn View Post
ISo, I tend to not care about those types of discussions, as they lead to bogus opinions that really have no affect on me, my mud, or role-play whatsoever, just whenever it gets the community split and creates the 'my mud has real RP, vs. your crappy mud that has levels/classes.' That is degenerative and causes people to have to pick sides and closes players minds to a narrow view of what an RP mud should or should not be.

And, it is all exactly the same, whether you role-play for tabletop, muds, or in the bedroom, it is still role-play.
Well said, I'll agree with that.
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Old 04-23-2010, 10:29 PM   #83
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Re: What types of games are impacted the most by permadeath?

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And, it is all exactly the same, whether you role-play for tabletop, muds, or in the bedroom, it is still role-play.
... except permadeath during the bedroom roleplay can land the player in jail.

But seriously, I'd want to recognize two broad "types" of roleplaying.

Some players basically roleplay "themselves" with some quirks. They may roleplay a character that is an elven ranger and hates dwarves, but otherwise they are "playing themselves" - much like you'd "play yourself" while playing Halo. The player is making decisions like "Alright, I love to use the sniper rifle!" even if the story nominally tells them that their character is named "Master-Chief." - when roleplaying in the bedroom, people would (presumably) be taking this sort of role.

Other players roleplay a personality quite distinct from their own, much like an author of a book is writing "someone else" - they may decide that, in their books, Master-Chief uses knives, even if they would prefer a sniper rifle. These players are also much more likely to handicap their characters in various roleplayed ways - for example, they may know there is a trap, but be playing an optimistic and naive character, and walk into that trap.

So, the permadeath decision will effect those two general types of players very differently. If you're "playing yourself" then your character can die, and you can pick up a new one. Sure, you've lost items, story, contacts, skills, etc. but you can still have "that same sort of fun" with your next character. Maybe your next character is a dwarven axeman rather than an elven ranger, but essentially you're still able to jump in and enjoy the game.

The second type of player *may* benefit from their character dying. Some players find the story gets stale, but can't let go of their characters. And a dramatic end is better than a story just trailing off into nothing. But they also have a lot more to loose. If I'm writing the Lord of the Rings, and I'm halfway through book 2 and someone tells me "Frodo has to die now. Introduce a new character instead." then that is going to throw me. Either the new character is going to have to take up Frodo's role (which is bad for believability in a strong RP mud) or they're going to have to follow some other story.
And if I was enjoying the game because of my character's role in that story, I might not be able to switch to a new character and continue the game with a similar amount of enjoyment. If they kill of Spiderman in the comics, I might not be able to continue reading my Spiderman comics with the same enjoyment, even if they introduce a new character. Maybe they'll start telling a story about Wolverine. But I was buying and following the story of Spiderman, not Wolverine. Yeah, Wolverine is cool. Just not what I was after.

I'm certainly not saying I'm against death for those "tell a story about a character" players. But I do think it's worth recognizing those two types of players, and recognizing that the costs are different.

And then, yeah, I agree with Milawe. There are excellent players who prefer both types of roleplaying. There are excellent players who both prefer or dislike permadeath. As long as the game admin sets a good tone and enforces the game properly, it'll attract the players who prefer that setup. Neither is "better" or "worse" than the other.

But it's still worth discussing the pros and cons. That helps us target our games. And there are certainly many levels of "in between" (e.g. permadeath, but only at great cost to the killer. Or permadeath with consent. Or permadeath, but only if they victim takes specific risks, etc.)
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:42 AM   #84
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Re: What types of games are impacted the most by permadeath?

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Originally Posted by silvarilon View Post
... except permadeath during the bedroom roleplay can land the player in jail.
Hah. Good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvarilon View Post
But seriously, I'd want to recognize two broad "types" of roleplaying.

Some players basically roleplay "themselves" with some quirks. They may roleplay a character that is an elven ranger and hates dwarves, but otherwise they are "playing themselves" - much like you'd "play yourself" while playing Halo. The player is making decisions like "Alright, I love to use the sniper rifle!" even if the story nominally tells them that their character is named "Master-Chief." - when roleplaying in the bedroom, people would (presumably) be taking this sort of role.

Other players roleplay a personality quite distinct from their own, much like an author of a book is writing "someone else" - they may decide that, in their books, Master-Chief uses knives, even if they would prefer a sniper rifle. These players are also much more likely to handicap their characters in various roleplayed ways - for example, they may know there is a trap, but be playing an optimistic and naive character, and walk into that trap.

So, the permadeath decision will effect those two general types of players very differently. If you're "playing yourself" then your character can die, and you can pick up a new one. Sure, you've lost items, story, contacts, skills, etc. but you can still have "that same sort of fun" with your next character. Maybe your next character is a dwarven axeman rather than an elven ranger, but essentially you're still able to jump in and enjoy the game.

The second type of player *may* benefit from their character dying. Some players find the story gets stale, but can't let go of their characters. And a dramatic end is better than a story just trailing off into nothing. But they also have a lot more to loose. If I'm writing the Lord of the Rings, and I'm halfway through book 2 and someone tells me "Frodo has to die now. Introduce a new character instead." then that is going to throw me. Either the new character is going to have to take up Frodo's role (which is bad for believability in a strong RP mud) or they're going to have to follow some other story.
And if I was enjoying the game because of my character's role in that story, I might not be able to switch to a new character and continue the game with a similar amount of enjoyment. If they kill of Spiderman in the comics, I might not be able to continue reading my Spiderman comics with the same enjoyment, even if they introduce a new character. Maybe they'll start telling a story about Wolverine. But I was buying and following the story of Spiderman, not Wolverine. Yeah, Wolverine is cool. Just not what I was after.

I'm certainly not saying I'm against death for those "tell a story about a character" players. But I do think it's worth recognizing those two types of players, and recognizing that the costs are different.

And then, yeah, I agree with Milawe. There are excellent players who prefer both types of roleplaying. There are excellent players who both prefer or dislike permadeath. As long as the game admin sets a good tone and enforces the game properly, it'll attract the players who prefer that setup. Neither is "better" or "worse" than the other.

But it's still worth discussing the pros and cons. That helps us target our games. And there are certainly many levels of "in between" (e.g. permadeath, but only at great cost to the killer. Or permadeath with consent. Or permadeath, but only if they victim takes specific risks, etc.)
Excellent points. I was merely focusing on the broader spectrum of things as role-playing. As in taking on the role of another personality other than yourself. Which in that term kinda kills the first type of role-player you have discussed, however I think they are a valid point, considering us players on the other end of the screen do not know that is how the person really is or not.

And I agree with the permadeath seeming to have a bigger impact on a player who plays another character other than themselves and puts more into a character, I like your metaphors with The Lord of the Rings and Spiderman. This is exactly my point.
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