Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > Mud Development and Administration > Advanced MUD Concepts
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-15-2010, 03:43 PM   #201
Justin534
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 27
Justin534 is on a distinguished road
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

ROFLs @ twinkiness
Justin534 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 04:45 PM   #202
Delerak
Senior Member
 
Delerak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Name: Dan
Location: New York
Posts: 706
Delerak is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Delerak Send a message via AIM to Delerak Send a message via MSN to Delerak Send a message via Yahoo to Delerak
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakha View Post
The slave role has always been problematic, and there have been issues with it off and on for years. It's not the first time that the slave role has been taken off the table, so it's not like this is some new sign of the degradation of RP. You also seem to be missing the harshness as much as the RP quality.
I played a Borsaili slave that had about 20 days racked up on him and I think he worked out just fine. I think the problem was current PCs being enslaved and valuing "freedom" so much that they would just retire instantly. I think that's a cop out though and if you're unwilling to take the consequences of things you do with your character you shouldn't be playing an RPI.
Delerak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 06:17 PM   #203
Bakha
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 46
Bakha is on a distinguished road
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delerak View Post
I played a Borsaili slave that had about 20 days racked up on him and I think he worked out just fine. I think the problem was current PCs being enslaved and valuing "freedom" so much that they would just retire instantly. I think that's a cop out though and if you're unwilling to take the consequences of things you do with your character you shouldn't be playing an RPI.
The slave role did work out fine for some. For others (and not just bad roleplayers), it was a miserable experience. I remember at one time the staff disallowed people to even special app to play slaves because the role could turn into a boring and even unplayable one even for players who actually wanted to play the slave concept.

We're pretty off track with the discussion on slavery, though. I still maintain that much of the perceived degradation of RPI quality is nothing more than the age old "kids these days suck" from the old guard.
Bakha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2010, 08:08 PM   #204
Delerak
Senior Member
 
Delerak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Name: Dan
Location: New York
Posts: 706
Delerak is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Delerak Send a message via AIM to Delerak Send a message via MSN to Delerak Send a message via Yahoo to Delerak
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakha View Post
We're pretty off track with the discussion on slavery, though. I still maintain that much of the perceived degradation of RPI quality is nothing more than the age old "kids these days suck" from the old guard.
Fair enough I respect your opinion. But you can't deny the fact that RPI's (or Arm if you prefer), have changed their policies so much that the old ways of playing are gone. A perfect example for Arm is that Staff never animate clan NPCs anymore. All of the communication with the "uppers" of the clans must be done through update e-mails. To me this detracts from possible roleplay opportunities which really drove Arm a few years back. As much as I disliked Halaster, when I as in the militia and he jumped into the Red Robe templar to roleplay with us I loved it. It's that interaction that the mud really was about I think. Sending in OOC updates about IC happenings just seems so.. degrading to an RPI.
Delerak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2010, 08:06 PM   #205
prof1515
Senior Member
 
prof1515's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 791
prof1515 will become famous soon enoughprof1515 will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to prof1515 Send a message via Yahoo to prof1515
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakha View Post
I staffed on and played Armageddon for years. I suspect that the source of much of the "RPIs have gone downhill" argument is based in nostalgia, not empirical evidence or even reality. That being said, I don't play at all anymore, so I admit that I can't speak from experience. I do occasionally read the Armageddon discussion boards, and it doesn't appear that much has changed judging from the, admittedly inadequate, snapshot of the boards.
Armageddon is in a way an anomoly in that pattern but that's because Arm has always had a bipolar nature in regard to RP. On one hand you have excellent RP that goes on in the clans and the like. On the other hand, you have aspects of the game, the "out of the city"

Quote:
I definitely agree that Armageddon has gotten less harsh as time has gone on. There was a time when twinks ran around killing people randomly while chalking it up to "RP." Complaints about said twinkiness to staff were dealt with through a response of, "It's a harsh world. Get over it." This doesn't mean that the RP quality was better back then, though.
It was this staff attitude which always relegated Arm to the bottom of the RPIs on my list. Even if it contained the best RP out there, that was offset by the presence of people who didn't RP at all. Think of it this way: if half the students in the class get 100% A's on their test and the other half get 0% F's, the class average is 50% which is still an F, not a C average. While Arm was so black-and-white 50/50, the non-RPing PKers definitely brought the average way down.

By contrast, I never had that experience on the other RPIs for a long time but over time saw more and more of it. So perhaps because it was possible to always encounter that on Arm, nothing may have changed but it definitely did elsewhere. I first saw it while on SoI and frequently voiced my dissatisfaction with the "more players is better" philosophy if it meant easing tight controls on strict RP in-game. I really saw the decline on HL which coupled with my health problems made me dread more and more logging in and playing. I made one last effort at it and I knew going into that evening that the outcome would probably determine whether I'd stick with the game or walk away forever. As it turned out, I walked away forever and with good cause: the sort of attitude you mention above.

If Arm has indeed begun to crack down on such behavior then that's a great achievement on their part and a worthwhile indicator that they're not succumbing to the problems other RPIs have faced in regard to lower standards. Kudos to Arm!

Quote:
And prof: FiFi plays on Armageddon, I believe.
My comment wasn't directed solely at FiFi but rather a reminder that in any circumstance one must keep several questions in mind regarding the perspective of any comment.
prof1515 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2010, 08:25 AM   #206
Justin534
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 27
Justin534 is on a distinguished road
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

I've seen a lot of posts where people tend to say that MUSHes have very little in the way of code. I found this interesting as my experience with MUSHes is that they have very deeply coded systems. Especially, when looking at something like HSPACE

Quote:
having to type in exact commands in order to see someone's misspelled text approximation of what "crafting" an object should look like, and not being able to slow actions down enough to emote something interesting and personal in the midst of the game's stock emits gets old very fast. I think that code is vital for conflict resolution...
Very well said. For me it seems that some MUDs use code to completely replace the GM rather then supplement the GM. The game ends up looking and feeling like a game and less like an experience. Everything you do feels like you the player did it, but your character didn't have much to do with it. I think often times code is used to the detriment of creating a rich immersive RP atmosphere, and creates an environment that, even though OOC forms of communication have been eliminated, the experience feels very OOCy in itself.

Quote:
Moreover, not being able to simultaneously interact with the player as well as the character takes out a lot of the fun for me
Agreed, I've yet to understand why RPI's completely eliminate global OOC channels with allowing the option for them to be toggled on/off. In my experience OOC forms of communication haven't done anything to hinder RP, as long as it is established that OOC communication is strictly OOC. Global OOC channels have, in my opinion, also helped a great deal to create and foster an overall MUD-wide sense of community among players and staff. I think it also helps with lowering any degree of resentment that might arise between players as it helps to draw a clearer line between the players and their characters. With OOC communication its possible for a two player's characters to be mortal enemies, but allow the players to be buddies on OOC terms. If you get rid of OOC communication any resentment that arises encompasses both player-player resentment and character-character resentment.

edit: yikes these forums confuse me half the time...this post was in response to a post near the beginning of this thread, which before logging in looked like it was more recent.

Last edited by Justin534 : 11-23-2010 at 08:57 AM.
Justin534 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2011, 08:38 AM   #207
HAL
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Indiana
Home MUD: Atonement
Posts: 8
HAL is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to HAL
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 View Post
The limitations of the code (especially the clumsy and limited speech/emote code) on the RPIs I played made "immersion" impossible for me. Having to justify eating for the third time in the middle of a scene, having to type in exact commands in order to see someone's misspelled text approximation of what "crafting" an object should look like, and not being able to slow actions down enough to emote something interesting and personal in the midst of the game's stock emits gets old very fast. I think that code is vital for conflict resolution, but for me attempts to code a simulation of reality on RPIs always come off as the worst of both worlds: not real enough to be believable, and not game-like and silly enough to be enjoyed just for themselves.
Definitely an interesting perspective! I guess I've gotten used to the DIKU variant of emotes and speech code, so that I find natural and flexible. I have attempted to play Armageddon on occasion, as I keep hearing interesting things, and their emote system continues to keep me at arms length, unfortunately. I see where you are coming from, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 View Post
Also, in time I found the "no OOC" rules on most RPIs to be major irritants. They do not help people stay "immersed" in the game. Instead, those who want to cheat do it outside the game where they're less likely to be caught, while those who have trouble distinguishing play time from real life and their characters from themselves find institutional support for indulging in all sorts of whacked out self-insertion and OOC dramatics in response to IC events. Moreover, not being able to simultaneously interact with the player as well as the character takes out a lot of the fun for me. I still don't like a lot of OOC chatter, but a little bit of OOC communication at the time can make scenes more challenging and more enjoyable. At its best, there is more of a sense of playing for each other when you can have that sort of communication. RPIs--especially ones where the culture encourages "solo RP" for crafting/practicing in order to advance skills and levels--feel a lot more like playing by myself, but with additional "RP" restrictions that prevent me from just playing with the environment for the fun of it.
This is an interesting perspective. I've found that the majority of our players would find it incredibly jarring for someone to OOCly talk about something else in the middle of an intense scene. But then again, we have a live chat that is available outside of the game for players to use.

I do agree with you, that people who want to cheat will do so outside of the game where they are less likely to be caught, and the folks who try and learn the code and other OOC intensive bits about the mud suffer for it. We had some trouble players who knew the combat code left, right, backwards and forwards, coordinated OOCly, and we had to deal with the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 View Post
One final thing about supposedly keeping OOC completely out of the game: If I find out on a MUSH or MUX that almost every one of the powerful and influential characters in the game is the alt of a staff member and that each member of staff has three, four, or more alts, experience tells me that I want to run for the door as fast as I can. Because there's not that sort "OOC secrecy" on those games, I can usually find out pretty quickly if that's the case; frequently, I can find out without even logging in. However, it was only when I became staff on an RPI after nine months of playing that I discovered that was the case and that one of the main staff duties was to hang around invisible in public areas waiting for swat people for whispering OOC stuff like "I'm going to go out and fight the X later, want to come?" to each other. That's not the atmosphere in which I want to play, and it's the one that IC/OOC separation can foster. At least on more open games, problems are much less easily hidden and not justified under some rubric of "immersion" or "role playing."
I find that forums, chats, and other OOC resources help raise the barrier between IC and OOC, simply because people are so aware of it. You chat on the forum as a player, you play IG as a character, if you blend those, there are penalties. Information as well is limited as to what can be talked to on the forums, but having things like, "Event at 12 noon tomorrow to hunt X," is perfectly fine.

I've had the same experience with staff Alts. I've never seen a staffer that can do a completely 100% job at keeping their character experience outside of their staffer work. We allow staff alts, but restrict them to a low level, and really avoid them becoming any sort of clan leadership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal59mo2 View Post
I know play on much more lightly coded MUSHes/MUXes (with some brief forays into heavily coded MOOs like Hell just for the fun of it), and I have a hard time imagining going back to the restrictions of an RPI MUD.
I've been in the same boat when looking at MUSHes, the lack of code makes it hard to imagine playing them, for me personally. Though I keep hearing fantastic thing.
HAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 01:44 AM   #208
Newworlds
Legend
 
Newworlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,382
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Hey HAL,

You do realize that post was over a year old and in the midst of a long topic? Took me awhile to even find out who you were replying to and why.
Newworlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 11:50 AM   #209
HAL
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Indiana
Home MUD: Atonement
Posts: 8
HAL is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to HAL
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

I was not aware, apologies for necro-ing a thread! Ah, I saw the month date, but not the year.

Reading more deeply into the original posts, it's actually a surreal experience, as now I'm the game director of Atonement.

Last edited by HAL : 12-03-2011 at 03:58 PM.
HAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 11:21 PM   #210
Newworlds
Legend
 
Newworlds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Name: NewWorlds
Home MUD: New Worlds
Posts: 1,382
Newworlds will become famous soon enoughNewworlds will become famous soon enough
Re: Veterans of Roleplay Intensive MUDs

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAL View Post
I was not aware, apologies for necro-ing a thread! Ah, I saw the month date, but not the year.

Reading more deeply into the original posts, it's actually a surreal experience, as now I'm the game director of Atonement.
No worries. Congrats on taking over game direction on Atonement. If memory serves I believe Atonement is the only game of that genre I would consider recommending.
Newworlds is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014