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Old 04-23-2002, 07:30 PM   #1
Julien
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Unhappy

Reading all the RP posts (especially the one about villains and accepting the consequences of being evil) reminded me of a question that has been nagging away at me for a while. Here's hoping that some of you can generate possible solutions for a situation like this:

1) Enter a villain, quite thoroughly convinced he's bad to the bone and utterly evil, not to mention near-invincible.

[He's had to do this or the player fears he'll be hacked into pieces by the first rabid do-gooder he meets.]

2) Enter a hero, also quite thoroughly convinced he's the savior of the land and destined to slay the evil villain at the first opportunity he gets.

[This other player is quite put-out at the huge numbers of near-invincible villains wandering the territory and is trying to create/roleplay an opposing force to the rampant evil.]

3) They end up in an RPed fight with each other. This is done through poses/emotes, not anything coded.

[Midway through, both players realize none of them are willing to lose, or indeed, even give a little leeway, since it'll end up feeding the other player's ego.]

Stalemate.

---

Now, the problem with this particular situation is that it is taking place on a MU* with no admins/staffers (that can act as a judge/authority/GM) or a coded system of resolution (such as dice rolling or skill checks or simple PK).

Yes, I know very well that a ton of MU*s out there use the above because they can avoid problem situations like these. No need to convince me how good these systems are, because I like them myself. Just assume on this particular MU*, it is not possible to change the RP system.

RP here appears to hinge on the players' ability to cooperate with each other and give and take. RP here crumbles when one or both players indulge in selfish fantasies about their character's level of power.

Is there any solution to a mess like this? Or even a partial solution? (Besides both players getting a sudden dose of wisdom, or a code change in the way the MU* works.)

I understand most of you come from MU* backgrounds with established systems of resolving disputes/conflicts. I'm asking out of curiosity, treat it as a hypothetical, mental exercise in brainstorming solutions.

Julien, closet RPer
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Old 04-23-2002, 11:01 PM   #2
Xanferious
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the best one discribing his actions should win
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Old 04-23-2002, 11:33 PM   #3
aeslyn
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I agree with Forsaken for the most part....

I give an example. In a normal place without PvP or PK or whatever you call it, my drake would always be able to take out the spider I'm talking about....here follows the example and my RP restriction:

Raangel pokes Aeslyn.
Aeslyn growls angrily and glances down at the spider.
Raangle bites Aeslyn!
It misses.
Aeslyn rolls her eyes, and fans her wings slowly.
Aeslyn pokes a claw at Raangel's shoulder.
Raangel chitters.
Raangel tries to push down Aeslyn.
Aeslyn pushes down Raangel.
   Raangel falls down.
Raangel pulls Aeslyn closer to her and shreds one wing.
Aeslyn winces.

Here is my problem...Aeslyn doesn't pk much...my character may have killed four people in her entire 7 years and she's never been a great skilled drake, but she's feared. In the above instance, I was doing what I enjoy best...an RP'd fight, pushing, arguing (which doesn't help cause the spiders can't speak common), etc. The only problem, Raangel went beyond what is RPably possible. Her player realized that after it happend and luckily I RP'd my drake getting healed, but technically shredding of a wing makes someone unable to fly, something that has happened to two drakes I know. That power is an Immortal power or something bestowed during a scenario.

So in your instance, you have the choice of ignoring something that is WAY too out there or RPing a way to fix their over zealousness. In my case, both characters had known each other for years and the spider had just become hostile to my drake so I was less likey to get annoyed for a bit of over RPing

As for those who come in and play the always unbeatable RP godling machine....my character would snort, ignore them, or argue about their *apparent* godliness. Of course my favourite character is of a race older than gods so it works .

Good luck!

Eliot

Edited to say I lub Raangel!!!! She's still Aeslyn's favourite spider!
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Old 04-23-2002, 11:42 PM   #4
aeslyn
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One last thing....I'm an extremely argumentative person and going IC is one of the best places for me to get that out. In my MUD many drakes go against each other. Age, colour, and verbal ability are the best in which to best each other....as well as description....

My drake, though she is less seen has always bested another drake who poses himself as the one and only gift to everyone. The reason I've bested him? I'm less cocky than his character and so my character uses more subtle ways to sway the population....though her wingspan and colouring always outdo him in an OOC way I win! And here is an example that description can very often be WAY too much to win.... "Aeslyn fans her wings slowly as she takes in her surroundings. Her silvery-grey eyes take in your apparent weaknesses and she roars in triumph as she succedes in scaring you to death. Aeslyn closes her claws around your shoulders and lifts you quickly 40 feet into the air where she promtly drops you to your death!" Hehe....I wish we could do that


Eliot
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Old 04-24-2002, 01:34 AM   #5
Falconer
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Julien,

To summarize:
1) There's no cooperation among players.
2) There's no staff.
3) There's no coded structure.

You, my friend, have just created the perfect rock and hard place in RP MU*s. Granted, I realize it's hypothetical, but without any of the three items above that roleplaying environment is going to sink faster than a paralyzed hobbit who's allergic to water.

Even in my days engaging in freeform roleplaying on the IRC, there were specific 'rules' set up to discourage situations such as the one you outlined. There were operators of the channel as well, who could kick and ban any that refused to follow them.

In the end of it all, that's the major purpose of both code and staff--to ensure the sanctity of roleplaying within a realm.

Best,
Edward
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Old 04-24-2002, 11:17 AM   #6
Wik
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Angry

Read Thomas Hobbes, about his concept of the State of Nature. Great philosopher. It sounds very much like what you're proposing, and he uses it as justification for people banding together in lawful societies. Unless you're an anarchist or enjoy ooc manipulation and bullying to get your way, there really isn't a way to solve it. Unless you cheat and use peer pressure and social, non-written-in-stone laws.
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Old 04-24-2002, 06:06 PM   #7
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My other response seems to have disappeared, so I'll try again.

About the only solution I can see (which isn't a great one) is to have someone else step in with some excuse to have one of them leave with him/her.  The person leaving can save face by saying something like "This isn't over!!"; I'm not sure what that would be other than saying someone else needs help, your house is burning, whatever. It won't solve the underlying situation, but it will get them out of the deadlock.

I think the biggest problem is that too many people believe that every confrontation has to end with someone dying or being beaten down in some other way.  Many times those conflicts can be acted out with no actual violence involved, so it doesn't matter if the other person responds as expected. If you're one of the participants, you have some control over it; if you're just an observer, you can always try to find some way to end it without having to rely on either of them being the `bigger person' and accepting defeat.
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Old 05-10-2002, 09:18 PM   #8
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My mud dealt with this recently, and I think our solution is a very good one (I'm a tad biased, since I helped come up with it ).

This hasn't been implemented yet, so we have yet to see how it will affect the pbase and what people will think of it.  I've never seen anything like it before (which isn't saying much) so I'd love opinions or ideas.

We came up with what we call the estimated combat ability system.  We are *not* a mush, we are rom, we have leveling, and we wanted to make a system that complimented our mud.  That is, we wanted something that encouraged people to level and gain skills.  The estimated combat ability system (ECA) assigns people a combat value based on a number of factors.

These factors are: level, remorts, guild, guild rank, race and talents (we are a wheel of time mud).  The last four factors determine your base ECA.  For example, if you are of guild rank 1 in towerguard, you will get a rather high base based on the assumption that you are an experienced warrior.  A guild rank 10 towerguard would get a much lower base.  Similarly, your base could vary if you were a fade, a channeler, a blademaster or a wolfkin.  To this base you add points based on your level.  There is a declining return to levels, so remort's levels are worth less than mort's levels (though a level 1 remort gets 101 mort levels and 1 remort level) and extension levels are worth very little.  We have coded a command that announces a person's ECA (all code calculated) to everyone in the room.  People then rp battles with the victor determined by ECA.

I think this is a good solution but a very limited number of people have had input on it.  My biggest fear is that predetermining the victor beforehand will make people rp very little and very badly in battles.  However, the mud is rp enforced, so perhaps having a pbase that desires a great deal of rp will put effort into battles for the fun of it.

This doesn't eliminate imm judging.  We will do this as well when situations demand it (imm quests and events).

Tell me what you think,
Sidmouth
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