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Old 08-18-2003, 05:05 PM   #1
Adarkts
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First off, this is not a flame, it is an invitation....

In the review http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin....um=4179 of Dartmud by "Bill the Naked Knight", he discussed some problems with the RPing.

Specifically, he said:
Quote:
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Instead of people RPing with me, they jumped down my throat and called me 'n00b' and other foolish names, saying "It's just a mob, man. Get over it."
Anyone who has played DM for a while knows that the players there do not use the terms "n00b" or "mob".  This leads me to believe that these particular people were not representative of the true playerbase in DM.  

To Bill, I invite you to give DM another look.  This time, try to venture outside the main city, read the message boards, find the Guild and House leaders, find and interact with the true playerbase of the mud, not just the riffraff that inhabits the main city.

To others reading this, give DM a try.  Don't read the reviews and base your opinion on them.  They are all biased to the good and to the bad.  Base your opinion of DartMud on YOUR OWN experience there.
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Old 08-18-2003, 05:41 PM   #2
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I'll jump in here, as someone who has played DM a few times, and agreed with most of what Bill the Naked Knight had to say, just not the way he said it.

First off, he was right when saying that it has a GREAT backstory and world, which -could- be one of the best gaming/Roleplaying environments on the net.

I think his problem was the fact that people wander about, killing NPCs, Mobiles, whatever you call them, and still manage to call themselves a Roleplay Intensive, and REQUIRED mud.

All in all I would give DM a good score, for world, Code, and historical originality, but I agree with him when he said that calling DartMud a roleplay intensive mud was a 'farce'.

I'll take my roleplaying as realistic as possible, and the npc hunting just doesn't fit the bill.

I don't have 2 cents, so that'll have to do.
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Old 08-19-2003, 01:19 AM   #3
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Perhaps you consider interacting with npc mobiles the end-all-be-all of RP. I don't.

RP in a strict sense means playing your role, not trying to make the coded world behave in ways the creators never intended (a subjective process at best).

PCs don't sit and talk to npcs in DM, perhaps in your view they should. They don't spend time teaching npcs, perhaps you think they should. They don't RP hiring/paying npcs for jobs they are not coded to do, perhaps you think they should. Maybe you think shopkeepers should negotiate their prices each time and PCs should overpay them on occasion to RP a higher negotiated price that the code does not reflect. If you are going to ask that npcs be treated just like pcs there are many situations that should be done that aren't done in DM. Play your role based on the coded constraints. Its rather arrogant to go to a new MUD and declare it lacking because it doesn't fit your mental model.

If your main complaint is the killing of npcs perhaps you should treat it IC instead of OOC. I consider it OOC to see an npc being killed and reacting in horror in DM. IC, DM is a very tough place and slaughter happens equally to PCs and NPCs alike (there is no advantage to killing npcs in DM unless you are robbing them of their substandard gear as they do not give xp or carry gold). It is decently common and yet you are not RPing as if your character grew up in the lands of Ferdarchi. Leave your RL expectations at the door please. If anything your RP isn't up to DM's standard and you are judging it by other worlds you have played in instead of playing in the world of Dartmud.

In defense of the posters who find DM's RP lacking I will only say that the beginning city is rife with newbies. I agree that 'noob' and 'mob' are not terms that are part of the DM culture. As in any MUD there are experienced RPers and inexperienced ones. Take some time to make friends with more experienced players.

So if you are serious about RP in DM you need to learn the world and figure it out first instead of trying to make DM fit your preconceived notions from other worlds you have played in. Perhaps you will still feel DM isn't the place for you. I think thats fair. No world can be all things to all people. Thankfully this community has many worthy games to choose from. Perhaps you will find Armageddon, Accursed Lands, or Shattered Kingdoms more to your taste. I have played all of these in the past and find them excellent though each is distinctly different.

In my opinion once you spend some time in the world you will see many RP opportunities and my personal favorite is the political landscape. Alliances and plots abound with spying and backstabbing being commonplace. Of course this makes true friends a rare oasis to be savored and appreciated.

RP is about playing a role and being part of a story, not judging other's RP and declaring it not up to your standards. If you enjoy correcting other's RP then Dartmud is not for you.

* In no way do my above statements apply to other MUDs. MUDs do not need my permission or anyone else's to make any rules about RP they wish. These are only my opinions about DM, a MUD I played for many years.
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Old 08-19-2003, 03:40 AM   #4
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First of all, I never said interacting with npcs/mobs/whatever is the "end-all-be-all of RP". But, InCharacter, why in god's name would everyone be a-okay with this kind of non-stop violence?

So, what you're saying is that it is perfectly acceptable, and InCharacter to run about, hog-wild, killing everything in sight? I could care less if you teach, speak to, ignore completely, or have virtual sex with your NPC's.

The problem I have is everyone rushes about killing these mobs/npc's which from my understanding are there to enrich the world, and provide a 'aid' if you will, to RP and gaming altogether. While that sounds bad at first, bear with me. Mob's add character, and depth to an otherwise empty world, unless your Mud is large enough to have a strictly player run economy, completely free of any sort of automation. These are the shopkeepers, merchants, innkeepers, whores, vagrants, and soldiers of your virtual world.

Then, when characters such as the one Bill played, make an InCharacter objection to what they see as murder and violence of the worst kind, regardless of the inclination of the rest of your playerbase, he's automatically "trying to make the coded world behave in ways the creators never intended".

Will his defense of the NPC be considered 'bad form'? Would it be ignored completely? Or is this whole matter subjective to the whims of the player at the moment? Where does it end?

Quote:
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If your main complaint is the killing of npcs perhaps you should treat it IC instead of OOC. I consider it OOC to see an npc being killed and reacting in horror in DM. IC, DM is a very tough place and slaughter happens equally to PCs and NPCs
For some reason, this just won't float with me.

Scene: I'm IN CHARACTER, wandering about and I see you/someone kill a random NPC. I as you why you killed this poor bastard. Just for kicks? Still InCharacter here, I report you and your crimes to the local militia/police/fuzz. Will I be ignored by your Immortals, PC law enforcement?

So, realism is thrown out the window, and the creators of your mud intended this? Or have I gotten your message here completely skewed, and what your saying is that the virtual citizens of your world were put there to be killed, without consequence?

Is Ferdachi a completely lawless world? Is murder and violence that common? Why? How does thier society continue to flourish this way? Or is what you're trying to say is that they aren't really there? That your actions should have no InCharacter consequences?

I could see where this might fly in a 'hack&slash' environment, but when you call yourselves "RP enforced' or 'Mandatory RP' or 'RP Intensive' how is is considered feasible?

I'm trying to understand here, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth about the whole matter.
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:08 AM   #5
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Actually, I consider all of our NPCs to be fairly OOC constructs--a crutch if you will.. props that take care of much of the boring stuff that might otherwise prove to be a serious impediment to playability. They don't have meaningful conversations, they don't have goals, they have no friends who mourn their death. If you want to treat them in a completely IC manner, you need to take these things into account as well. To any observant individual they would appear to be lobotomized zombies or elaborate sock puppets (some of the more detailed NPCs have finite state AI definition files that push 50k, but none would ever come close to passing the Turing test). Treating them the same as you would treat another player character is, in my opinion, a decidedly OOC act, as it requires you to conciously overlook their shortcomings for the OOC reason that they are NPCs. From a completely IC point of view, they might as well be brainless animals.

Now, our players choose not to bother with the mental gymnastics required to RP as if an NPC were a real concious being and instead focus on IC player interaction. That is, they make a distinction between props and actors, and behave accordingly. If you have a problem with this, I could recommend a handful of MUDs that would probably suit your style better.

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Originally Posted by
Then, when characters such as the one Bill played, make an InCharacter objection to what they see as murder and violence of the worst kind, regardless of the inclination of the rest of your playerbase, he's automatically "trying to make the coded world behave in ways the creators never intended".
Well, in this case, yes. NPCs were never intended to be part of the IC roleplaying atmosphere. The original intent of DM with respect to NPCs was to eliminate them entirely if feasible, but include them as crutches to handle the most boring functions if eliminating them entirely would cause undue inconvenience to players.

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Originally Posted by
Will his defense of the NPC be considered 'bad form'? Would it be ignored completely? Or is this whole matter subjective to the whims of the player at the moment? Where does it end?
Even with respect to player characters, it is considered highly unusual and suspicious for a character to make a big deal about the death of a stranger. The setting of DM is an extremely harsh one, and such a character is likely to be seen as either incredibly stupid, hopelessly naive, or, most likely, trying to further some hidden agenda--in other words, someone to be shunned and/or viewed with suspicion.

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Originally Posted by
Will I be ignored by your Immortals, PC law enforcement?
Well, there are no real IC immortals per se, and half of the time it's the rather corrupt law enforcement officials that do the killing anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Is Ferdachi a completely lawless world? Is murder and violence that common? Why? How does thier society continue to flourish this way? Or is what you're trying to say is that they aren't really there? That your actions should have no InCharacter consequences?
Not quite, but close (golden rule applies.. he who has the gold makes the rules). Yup. Find out for yourself if you feel so inclined. Very carefully. They're there. They most certainly do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I could see where this might fly in a 'hack&slash' environment, but when you call yourselves "RP enforced' or 'Mandatory RP' or 'RP Intensive' how is is considered feasible?
Because our IC atmosphere obviously isn't like what you expected it to be? If your character is the archetypal one-in-a-million who still believes in justice in an incredibly harsh, machiavellian society, you're free to have him/her try to uphold his/her ideals, but he/she will probably just get killed.

DartMUD is one-of-a-kind, purposefully designed to cater to a small niche group with a particular style of RP. Obviously it does not suit you, which is fine. The statement that it is lacking in RP, however, is only true for narrow definitions of RP.
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:36 AM   #6
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I'm a little unclear on the concept here. DM is an RPI, with NPC "bots" that are so declared as being OOC by the staff.

So why would anyone RP attacking something that is decidedly an OOC entity? If it -is- an OOC entity, then players should not be interacting with them -at all- with their characters - because their characters would not recognize these bots as being IC constructs.

If they are allowed to attack them, then the characters must be acknowledging that the bots are -not- OOC constructs, but rather IC entities that need to be killed for whatever reason.

And if they are considered IC entities that need to be killed for whatever reason, then it follows logically that there would be certain characters who would not want these entities to be killed, and RP as such.

I just don't see how you can have it both ways. In an RP-intensive, enforced, required game, the character is a living, breathing, thinking person whose every move is a decision, whether conscious or subconscious. Attacking an NPC is a conscious decision. You are intentionally taking action against another "thing" in the game. Why is your character doing this, if that "thing" is an ooc entity? Why is your character even acknowledging this OOC entity's existence, if it's OOC?

I'd like a bit of help understanding this concept, because honestly, it's just too foreign to grasp.
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:49 AM   #7
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I can understand that it might be difficult, as it's a radically different approach from Arm's.

Basically, while NPCs are technically IC entities, they are implemented for OOC reasons, and there is a clear, concious distinction between NPCs and PCs. You can justify this distinction both OOCly and ICly as I explained--whichever floats your boat. Yes, there may be people who wish to ICly save the NPCs from harm, but that person would be viewed in the same light on DM as an obese elf who absolutely adores half-elves would be on Arm. In other words, it is horribly, horribly out of place--so out of place that at least half of the players would consider it OOC.
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Old 08-19-2003, 02:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (WarHound @ Aug. 18 2003,17:41)
I'll take my roleplaying as realistic as possible, and the npc hunting just doesn't fit the bill.
Thanks for replying Jiles. Good posts and I appreciate you trying to help me understand.

But, it's just completely out of the question for me to make IC/OOC distinctions within the InCharacter world. It would be just too jarring for me to make the decision that they were just put there to be murdered, not really even ignored.

For those of you who would be able to make the distinction though, I would suggest DM, as it does have a detailed world and backstory, and seemingly a very dedicated playerbase.
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Old 08-19-2003, 07:29 PM   #9
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Post

Once upon a time (before I even started playing), a group of enterprising PC's decided to create a city council, in order to make laws for the main city everyone tends to hang out in.

They were soon summarily killed by other PC's.

Does it make sense for people to ICly treat their npc's any better than they treat the PC's? Especially in a city where the only "law" is "don't screw with people more powerful than you or you'll get your guts strewn across the street"?
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Old 08-19-2003, 11:43 PM   #10
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OOOkie... I'm just a little fed up here. Nearly every single time, if not every time, anyone posts a review about DartMUD that is in anyway negative, or even slightly disfavorable, a DMer has to start up a topic. I posted one that listed the good and the bad. You didn't like that either. This was nearly a year and a half ago. We got into a nearly 2 month argument which left you guys looking really rather... wrong. I was accused of things that never happened, was cussed at, and many other pleasantries. Fine, you didn't like what he had to say. Deal with it.

In fact, in my review, I did not even have a problem with the game. The code is pretty nice generally and background is decent. The problem is the players and the creators.

And also, treat NPC's exactly as you would players is the point. To kill or to make peace with. If you like, we can cover this again, as we did in the last argument. My mud has had bad reviews to, but we don't see fit to start something up. And that is pretty much what this is, though in much politer language than the other times. I'll have to thank you for that.

P.S. Sorry of all this comes across as harsh, specially if you literally intended it to be an invitation, but its gotten old. So very very old
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Old 09-04-2003, 10:38 PM   #11
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In reference to our recent reviews:

DartMUD does not tolerate harassment, sexual or otherwise. If anyone feels they are being harassed in connection with DartMUD by anyone - player, creator, ex-player - we strongly encourage them to contact any senior creator immediately.

Readers may be interested to know that we recently sitebanned a large number of high-level players in response to organized and malicious violations of our rules and AUP.

Prior to the bannings, we had received no complaints of harassment. We have received no subsequent complaints or reports of harassment from anyone who was not among the banned.

Anyone with additional information about this matter is invited to contact me or any senior DartMUD creator.

-Raven, DartMUD Admin
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:40 PM   #12
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I think I can speak for um...myself, I guess. When I say:

The "quality" of the last two "reviews" is a very good indication that DartMud is doing something RIGHT.

They sound like bitter people who have no lives and even less self-respect or sense of responsibility for their own actions, and kudos to DartMud for giving them the heave-ho.

I still like the game I play...but I would encourage anyone who's "between games" to check out DartMud's website and consider it as an option. I base THIS review solely on the fact that they banned people who are generally nasty and immature, and that can only be a good thing [tm].
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Old 09-05-2003, 09:29 PM   #13
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Wait, because of limitations in the code, something which is obviously OOC, NPCs are considered nothing more than zombies? Is there an IC explaination for this? Has a mind-boring insect robbed all shopkeepers of any thinking capacity? Seems a pretty lazy thing to do to have this gaping hole in your environment's realism. Even in an AD&D session, attacking the scenery (people walking about on the street) leads to some consequence. I think your players can't accept a rule to treat NPCs as people, even if only when considering splattering their non-existant brains across the shopfront. Some excuses, perhaps, to get people to ignore this flaw?
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Old 09-05-2003, 11:29 PM   #14
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Most of the offending npcs have been recently destroyed in the strike by the comet, and shopkeepers and important people tend to have guards who will come and rescue them on the whole. IMO the original rp problem of the npcs being used for sparring isn't even particularly valid really now.
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Old 09-06-2003, 01:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Jazuela @ Sep. 04 2003,23:40)
I base THIS review solely on the fact that they banned people who are generally nasty and immature, and that can only be a good thing [tm].
#### right.

Gordon Walton (former President of Online Services at Origin, Sims, etc) said during a Game Developers Conference talk once, "Ban them. Just ban them all." in reference to troublemakers.

Sounds like DartMud is doing something right.
--matt
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Old 09-06-2003, 10:20 AM   #16
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Boy are DartMudders sensitive to criticism...

Doesn't make me very eager to try something new if its players bash people who don't like it. At least in my opinion.
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Old 09-06-2003, 11:31 AM   #17
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I'm not sure whose post you directed your comments to, Azhon..

But be assured, I am not a "DartMudder." I gave the game a try once awhile back and didn't like it.

However, this thread is in regards to out-right flames and vulgarities, not posted in a thread on the forum here, but in the Review section of this website.

These flames and vulgarities were apparently written by people who have been recently site-banned from DartMUD. And I supported the opinion of the game's staff, by adding my opinion.

And that opinion is this: Any game that would site-ban people who would write a vulgarity-laden flame-fest and pass it off as a review, must be doing something right.

I wouldn't want to deal with people like that in the game I play.. would you want to deal with people like that in the one you play?
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Old 09-06-2003, 12:24 PM   #18
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Talking

Thanks for the kind words about our reviews and bannage situation.

I didn't expect to rekindle the NPC discussion, but let me say this about it: As a matter of policy, we try to minimize restrictions on what characters can and cannot do based merely on "rules". We could make a rule that says "Thou shalt treat NPCs as though they were player-characters," but that's not our thing. If we really want to prevent a behavior, we do our best to code a solution.

As has been noted, many of the NPCs who have a crucial function, such as the bank teller and shopkeepers, have coded protection from guards. You would also find that killing them does have IC consequences, as player-characters going to do business and finding the keeper dead get aggravated and make a point of finding out who is killing them, and will take care of the problem. Likewise, NPCs who are "cute" or have value as sparring partners gain some protection from the player-character population.

On the other hand, NPCs who are "annoying" or "mere fodder" are slain with little thought. It is not unusual, however, for player-characters who serve no useful purpose to meet a similar end.

In sum, the likelyhood of an average character hanging around town being slain, whether player or non-player, is inversely proportional to how useful to society they are perceived to be.

Thanks,

R.
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Old 09-07-2003, 12:52 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (RavenDM @ Sep. 06 2003,12:24)
On the other hand, NPCs who are "annoying" or "mere fodder" are slain with little thought.  It is not unusual, however, for player-characters who serve no useful purpose to meet a similar end.
So, what you have is a Roleplaying "Enforced", hack&slash Mud. Yeah...

"Come on guys, let's talk in medieval accents and run about with swords. It'll be badass. We can kill stuff and run hog-wild and NO ONE CARES! Wooot! I luv PRing! Look, see that guy there? Let's kill him! Why? Because Ferdachi is a harsh world, and we all know everyone kills each other without second thought in such a harsh world... Or we could kill him just for the **** of it."

I still just can't justify it, no matter how harsh your environment is. Armageddon is a harsh (dare I say harsher?) world, like Ferdachi, so is the world from AL, Harshlands, etc yet if you saw a person running about like a ****ing idiot, killing every npc in sight, then you can be sure he would be dealt with in short order, why?

Because these are roleplaying ENFORCED, Mandatory, No****ingchoiceaboutit muds. When I see 'Roleplaying: Mandatory', in the MudInfo pages, I usually know what to expect, and that usually is fairly good, REALISTIC(at least semi) RP.

And I have still yet to see an argument that disclaims what started this thread, which was Bill the Naked Knight's review, and DM's habit of whining about every negative review they've ever gotten.
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Old 09-07-2003, 02:21 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (WarHound @ Sep. 07 2003,00:52)
if you saw a person running about like a ****ing idiot, killing every npc in sight, then you can be sure he would be dealt with in short order, why?

Because these are roleplaying ENFORCED, Mandatory, No****ingchoiceaboutit muds. When I see 'Roleplaying: Mandatory', in the MudInfo pages, I usually know what to expect, and that usually is fairly good, REALISTIC(at least semi) RP.

And I have still yet to see an argument that disclaims what started this thread, which was Bill the Naked Knight's review, and DM's habit of whining about every negative review they've ever gotten.
The reason you have yet to see an argument is that nobody's arguing it. People do kill NPCs and PCs constantly, true. If a character objects, they'll probably get killed as well, true. You might even hear a comment "must be a newbie." And furthermore, players and staff from any given MUD, and DM in particular, are quite prone to responding verbosely to negative reviews. All perfectly true.

The argument we are making is: the roleplaying world you may be used to in one game is not necessarily transportable to another. A character attempting to transplant himself whole from Ferdarchi to your RP world, without first learning anything about what the opinions and actions of a character who grew up in that world would actually be, would doubtless be "dealt with in short order" - just the same, a character arriving in Ferdarchi with preconceived notions as to what is or is not acceptable based on some other world, is unlikely to have his or her expectations met (the character and the player both).

This is not the RP you're looking for. You are free to go.
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