Top Mud Sites Forum Return to TopMudSites.com
Go Back   Top Mud Sites Forum > MUD Players and General Discussion > Roleplaying and Storytelling
Click here to Register

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-08-2003, 12:59 AM   #1
Fifi
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 227
Fifi is on a distinguished road
I've played two muds in the five or so years I've been mudding. The first was Underlight, an rpi graphical mud (or maybe not a mud, mmorp or something or other.) I loved the rp, and it kept me interested for about a year. Eventually I found it somewhat static. Now, let me say that I thought the artwork on the game was beautiful. People have played and enjoyed the game for years. They have a very loyal playerbase, and I wouldn't try to steer anyone away from them.

Since, I've begun playing Armageddon. And I think beyond the strict rpi enforcement (and it is enforced by both imms and players) on of the reasons it succeeds so well, is the risk. The fact that there are consequences. And consequences is what makes the rp intensive.

Now, while looking around at other games to play on the mud's down times, I find that almost no other rp muds have permadeath. What I wonder is, why?
Fifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 05:38 AM   #2
Kallekins
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 48
Kallekins is on a distinguished road
I'm not strongly for or against permadeath. I can see both positives and negatives. You described the positive, so here are few negatives.
First, permadeath means more character cycling. There are unlikely to be old characters (not just players) who've been around since the beginning and remember when.
Second, risk has its flip sides too. If the risk is too great, people are unlikely to take it. Then you get a lot less action and risktaking. People sitting around crafting
Third, if players don't know that they are certainly going to be able to keep a character as long as they like it, they may be less likely to invest in that character--timewise, in terms of taking time to create a background, desc, everything that makes a great char, as well as emotionally, feeling some connection to the character. It makes the risk less.
Kallekins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 09:14 AM   #3
Tamsyn@zebedee.org
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 23
Tamsyn@zebedee.org is on a distinguished road
I agree to an extent. It depends how likely permadeath really is. For instance, you could give a character 9 lives, with permadeath occuring after the 9th death, but you could provide a means to 'buy back' a death for some considerable expense (be that in time or in xp/cash). That makes death even more costly, and players even more vary of death.

You might say 'why not just make a death more costly in some other way' which is a fair point.

Of course the by doing that, you have to be even more careful to avoid unreasonable deathtraps. If you don't have a buy back system, you risk player wrath if there is a bug, and you have to think carefully about playtesting players and whether they should have immunity.

With a system like this, any player worth his salt would have virtually no risk of permadeath, so long as they played sensibly, buying back deaths as they occur.

The exception is on a MUD with PK, where a particularly nasty character could pk someone to permadeath.

Hmm I guess I should put a conclusion here: Ok so in conclusion, I generally like the idea, but it's not implemented on Zebedee due to the issues above.
Tamsyn@zebedee.org is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 09:56 AM   #4
Jazuela
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New England
Posts: 843
Jazuela will become famous soon enoughJazuela will become famous soon enough
I first couldn't fathom even considering a permadeath system. I've played only a few text games, and no graphic multiplayers before. But now that I've been playing one, I can't imagine ever going back to the "rezz" system. It just seems to cheapen the experience, that pounding in your heart, if you know you'll be up and about in a few minutes again.

I used to be annoyed in the rezz games when I died and had to lose major experience points, because it meant another week of power-hunting up to gain my next level or next build so I could train again.

But in Armageddon, such need to power-hunt doesn't even exist, since there are no levels, and no training points. The mechanics are much more seamless than that for improving skills, which completely removes any need to "level up."

I like permadeath now. It makes me think hard about my character's actions. But even sometimes, I have to allow my character to get into situations in which I know she's gonna die, simply because it makes sense for her to get into them. In other games, players won't think that way. They'll do things with their characters that don't make sense, just to avoid death. But fortunately the maturity level of other players in Arm is such that people WILL risk losing their characters for the benefit of good roleplay.

It isn't just permadeath...it's the players' approach to it that makes all the difference, in my opinion.
Jazuela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 12:09 PM   #5
OnyxFlame
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 153
OnyxFlame is on a distinguished road
Post

The short answer? People are idiots.

The long answer is that a lot of people expect to have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Even on a mud that has permadeath, people will find other things that they expect to be able to easily aquire (money, skills, influence, etc.) and they'll whine when they discover it just ain't that easy. Why they don't realize that if there's no challenge there's no fun, I don't know.

Anyway, if you're looking for another RP mud with permadeath, I've described DM's system elsewhere so I won't bore people with it here. Permadeath is rather less certain than on Arm if you know what you're doing, and the RP is more laid back, but you might enjoy it.
OnyxFlame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 01:01 PM   #6
Tezcatlipoca
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 46
Tezcatlipoca is an unknown quantity at this point
Interesting thing this permadeath. I've personally never played in a system that has permadeath, but that seems to be because I'm more of a stubborn player; I find one type and stick with it. However, in the process of (slowly) designing and building a MUD "engine" if you will, permadeath obviously is something that I've needed to consider. The engine original was designed to work with a very complex layed out RP required MUD design of your basic (but high content) fantasy environment. As a result, permadeath seemed to be fine, and infact was a good move because of all the positives already listed, and because it was "realistic." The reason being, is in such a world, death could be controled a bit better through multiple ways: Instead of killing someone at the end of a fight, you would have the option of them "yielding" to you. They then become your servent for a while (unless they are sneaky devils and avoid it, but that would risk their death). If you have a spell to do it, you could also do a magic jar type spell as a failsafe for yourself. If you make proper (smart) relations, you could get to know a mage or priest that could ressurect your body before it rots to an unressurectable state. If you have the money, you could possibly set up a service with a local priestly sect, to have them recover your body, drag it back, and ressurect you if they detect your death. Lastly, if your that desprate, you could "push" yourself back into your body, and bring yourself back to life. Low chance of it succeding, and high costs if it does stat wise, but it would work. So for this "environment" permadeath seemed to be a good idea. Downside is, it is the type of environment where people would want to keep their characters for a long time.
Another environment where I designed the engine could be applied, is in a harsh social one, where basically everyone is either nomadic, hostile, or distrustfull. The quick exchange of characters in this world makes it more deadly, and I would assume it would have the same success or failures, and for the same reasons, as Armageddon.
The third environment is simmilar to the second, as it is still mideval fantasy, but in a harsher environment with less magic. Namely, a world that is covered almost completely by water, and naval travel/battles are prominent. High exchange of characters would be the norm presumably, which makes it similar in the permadeath appropriateness of the second one.
The last environment is the mist difficult however. Its one in which permadeath would make the most sense, and people comming back to life makes the least, but where a non-permadeath system would probably be the best to have: A futuristic, space traveling environment. The high technological abilities of the PCs and NPCs provide a lot of options that can kill you. But unlike a swords and magic environment, where if you get killed, your body is more then likely to be sitting there to be resurrected, after a bit of healing to your chest, in this environement, there may not be anything left that could be resurrected. For instance, if your in a fighter in a large battle, and you get hit, then the chances of your spaceship's survival is pretty slim. If your ship gets blown, then your not going to make it out either. On a large battleship, you may have an easier time of it, as you could work your way to an escape pod before the whole thing blows, if it does, and get out. But then you have to worry about the pods being targetted. If your onworld somewhere, the weapons are also more devistating then a blade; a shot in the head with a projectile weapon will kill you immediately. A single slice accross the chest with a blaster/laser gun, could cut or blow you in half. On top of that, there wouldnt be any magical ressurection, so if there isnt enough left of the head, then there is no bringing them back. So in this environment, "Realistically" death would be quicker, and ressurrection either nonexistant, or very limited to special lucky cirumstances. Not having a permadeath system however would just make it (imo) silly and kill the RP factor.

Ideas?
Tezcatlipoca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2003, 03:12 PM   #7
Fifi
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 227
Fifi is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Kallekins @ May 08 2003,04:38)
First, permadeath means more character cycling. There are unlikely to be old characters (not just players) who've been around since the beginning and remember when.
Second, risk has its flip sides too. If the risk is too great, people are unlikely to take it. Then you get a lot less action and risktaking. People sitting around crafting
Third, if players don't know that they are certainly going to be able to keep a character as long as they like it, they may be less likely to invest in that character--timewise, in terms of taking time to create a background, desc, everything that makes a great char, as well as emotionally, feeling some connection to the character. It makes the risk less.
As far as character cycling, if a thousand IC years have passed, the it seems realistic not to have anyone who remembers the beginning. And if perserving the history is important there is option to write it down, or pass it down through oral tradition.

Would people be more likely to sit around crafting because of their fear of death? Oddly I've found the opposite to be true. In the game, I played, without permadeath, there was a lot more playing it safe. People didn't want to lose their XP.

As far as investment goes, I find, knowing it could all be gone tomorrow makes today feel more precious.

I don't mean this as an argument, just an alternative point of view.
Fifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Permadeath - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you prefer permadeath in a RP MUD? OnyxFlame Tavern of the Blue Hand 39 10-06-2003 01:44 AM
permadeath Tamsyn@zebedee.org Roleplaying and Storytelling 0 05-08-2003 09:13 AM
Permadeath Muerte Advanced MUD Concepts 7 10-07-2002 02:49 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Style based on a design by Essilor
Copyright Top Mud Sites.com 2014